JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[Difflugia]

I was looking at the Greek ὁ, and I did not find any reference for this word being "Oh", or "O", in English.
Rather, the Greek word ὁ means "the".

The "O whoever" in English derives (I think) from the ancient Greek use of an omega as a formal indicator of a vocative statement. It was used a lot in Homeric Greek, but there's an example in the New Testament at Matthew 15:28:

τότε ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῇ· ὦ γύναι ("o gynai"), μεγάλη σου ἡ πίστις·

"Then Jesus answered her, 'O woman, your faith is great.'"

Later, for reasons that still aren't fully clear to me, Hellenistic Greek started using definite articles in the same situations, mostly in cases where the vocative is indistinguishable from nominative. There are unambiguous examples in Matthew 11:26 (ναὶ ὁ πατήρ, "Yes, Father.") and Luke 8:54 (ἡ παῖς, ἔγειρε, "Child, arise.").

So, the verse would correctly be rendered "Your throne, the God, is forever and ever..."
Since we normally don't read English with the definite article.

It's ambiguous whether God is being addressed directly or is synonymous with "your throne."

for example, John 1:1 ...the Word was with the (ὁ) God, it would read as rendered by the following translations:

Christian Standard Bible
Your throne, God, is forever and ever...

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Your throne, God, is forever and ever...

The rendered "God is your throne" would therefore be correct.

These retain the same ambiguity and I like the translations for that reason. It's the same as if I said, "Your hamburger, John17_3, is delicious." I'm probably talking to you, but it's possible that I'm talking to someone else and you're identically the hamburger. It's not likely, kind of like God being referred to as a throne, but it's possible.

I'm not sure why some translations, put ὁ as O, but the most likely reason, is due to a doctrinal view, because that is quite strange, isn't it? It's as if they think ὁ is an actual letter O.

English doesn't have a specific declension or particle to indicate a vocative. I assumed that the "O" was borrowed from ὦ or ὁ, but wasn't sure, so I asked ChatGPT. Assuming it's correct, here's what it says:

The English vocative "O" was not directly adopted from Greek but rather came through a process involving Latin, which was influenced by Greek. Here’s how the development unfolded:

In Ancient Greek, the vocative case is used for direct address, and sometimes the particle ὦ is used to add emphasis or reverence to the address. For example, ὦ Θεέ (O God) or ὦ φίλε (O friend).

Latin, which was heavily influenced by Greek, adopted many Greek conventions, including the use of O (often rendered as ō in Latin) in vocative expressions. Latin used O to mark direct address, especially in poetic or formal contexts. For example, O Roma (O Rome) or O deus (O god).

[onewithhim]

It is not certain whether ho theos is here the vocative ["your throne, O God"] ... or ho theos is nominative (subject or predicate) with estin (is) understood: God is thy throne" or "Thy throne is God" Either makes good sense." - Dr. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 339

"Both translations ["Your throne is God" and "Your throne, O God"] are possible, so none of the translations we are comparing can be rejected as inaccurate" - Dr. Jason Beduhn in his book Truth in Translation

For the record, I agree with this. Either rendering appears to be grammatically possible.

I think Difflugia has made a good argument above as to why "your throne, O God" is the more probable rendering.

source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... sion=RSVCE

As can be seen above there should be no contention as to the translation of this verse as their own bibles approve the reading "God is thy throne".

It is true that the Bible rendering agrees that "thy throne is God" could well be the correct translation, as presented in a footnote. BeDuhn says that it is the most probable rendering.

[Capbook]

HOW SHOULD HEBREWS 1v8 BE TRANSLATED ?

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... sion=RSVCE

As can be seen above, the verses can be rendered "God is thy throne". The Greek for Hebrews 1:8 literally reads as follows

Toward [but] the SON the throne of you the GOD into the age of the age

Source: http://www.abarim-publications.com/Inte ... 63in-S-if0


A CHALLENGE TO TRANSLATE

According to expert Greek scholars, the original Greek construction of Heb. 1:8 is somewhat ambiguous and can legitimately be rendered in various ways.

• It is not certain whether ho theos is here the vocative ["your throne, O God"] ... or ho theos is nominative (subject or predicate) with estin (is) understood: God is thy throne" or "Thy throne is God" Either makes good sense." - Dr. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 339
  
  "Both translations ["Your throne is God" and "Your throne, O God"] are possible, so none of the translations we are comparing can be rejected as inaccurate" - Dr. Jason Beduhn in his book Truth in Translation,

Although the Greek allows for various renditions, we have a clue as to the most likely understanding by looking at Psalm 45 verse 7.

PSALMS 45: A KEY TO UNDERSTANDING HEBREWS 1:8

• Hebrews 1:8 is a direct qoute from Psalm 45.
  
  • The Jerusalem Bible renders Psalm 45:6a as: "Your throne, God, shall last for ever and ever." which can be understood as meaning "Your throne (which is ) God, shall last for ever and ever" or "your throne, O god (see USCCB footnote below) , lasts forever"

  
  [*] The footnotes to the NAB were authorized by the American Council of Bishops
  https://bible.usccb.org/bible/psalms/45?7#23045007-1

  Code: Select all

  THE NEW JERUSALEM BIBLE  (2nd edition of this translation)
   
  Your throne [u]is from God[/u], for ever and ever - Psalms 45:7

So, Psalm 45 is speaking about the King (and by extension the promised Jewish Messiah) as a representative of the Almighty and we can hardly think the Hebrews understood the Messiah or the King to literally be Almighty God YHWH [

CONCLUSION The Hebrew and Greek of Hebrews 1:8 can indeed be rendered "thy throne is from God" or "Thy throne (God) lasts forever". Based on Psalms 45:7 it seems reasonable to conclude that either rendition, both of which are grammatically sound, reflects the writer's implied intention as being that the One spoken of is supported and appointed by God rather than is Almighty God himself.

JW




For further reading on the grammatical construction of Hebrews 1:8 see LINK below
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... eb-18.html

New Jerusalem Bible
https://www.catholic.org/bible/books_bible.php

To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...

GOD, JESUS and ...THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

Barne's do not perceive, after an interval of nearly twenty years since those notes were written, that it is necessary to alter or to add anything to what is there said in explanation of the passage. As it clearly proves that Christ is Divine.

Psalms 45:6
[Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever] This passage is quoted by the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews in proof that the Messiah is exalted above the angels, and it is, beyond all question, adduced by him as having original reference to the Messiah. See the passage explained at length in the notes at Heb 1:8. I do not perceive, after an interval of nearly twenty years since those notes were written, that it is necessary to alter or to add anything to what is there said in explanation of the passage. It is undoubtedly an address to the "king" here referred to as God-as one to whom the name "God" Elohiym - may be properly applied; and, as applied to the Messiah by the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews, it clearly proves that Christ is Divine. ( Barnes' )

[JehovahsWitness]

HOW SHOULD HEBREWS 1v8 BE TRANSLATED ?

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... sion=RSVCE

As can be seen above, the verses can be rendered "God is thy throne". The Greek for Hebrews 1:8 literally reads as follows

Toward [but] the SON the throne of you the GOD into the age of the age

Source: http://www.abarim-publications.com/Inte ... 63in-S-if0


A CHALLENGE TO TRANSLATE

According to expert Greek scholars, the original Greek construction of Heb. 1:8 is somewhat ambiguous and can legitimately be rendered in various ways.

• It is not certain whether ho theos is here the vocative ["your throne, O God"] ... or ho theos is nominative (subject or predicate) with estin (is) understood: God is thy throne" or "Thy throne is God" Either makes good sense." - Dr. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 339
  
  "Both translations ["Your throne is God" and "Your throne, O God"] are possible, so none of the translations we are comparing can be rejected as inaccurate" - Dr. Jason Beduhn in his book Truth in Translation,

Although the Greek allows for various renditions, we have a clue as to the most likely understanding by looking at Psalm 45 verse 7.

PSALMS 45: A KEY TO UNDERSTANDING HEBREWS 1:8

• Hebrews 1:8 is a direct qoute from Psalm 45.
  
  • The Jerusalem Bible renders Psalm 45:6a as: "Your throne, God, shall last for ever and ever." which can be understood as meaning "Your throne (which is ) God, shall last for ever and ever" or "your throne, O god (see USCCB footnote below) , lasts forever"

  
  [*] The footnotes to the NAB were authorized by the American Council of Bishops
  https://bible.usccb.org/bible/psalms/45?7#23045007-1

  Code: Select all

  THE NEW JERUSALEM BIBLE  (2nd edition of this translation)
   
  Your throne [u]is from God[/u], for ever and ever - Psalms 45:7

So, Psalm 45 is speaking about the King (and by extension the promised Jewish Messiah) as a representative of the Almighty and we can hardly think the Hebrews understood the Messiah or the King to literally be Almighty God YHWH [

CONCLUSION The Hebrew and Greek of Hebrews 1:8 can indeed be rendered "thy throne is from God" or "Thy throne (God) lasts forever". Based on Psalms 45:7 it seems reasonable to conclude that either rendition, both of which are grammatically sound, reflects the writer's implied intention as being that the One spoken of is supported and appointed by God rather than is Almighty God himself.

JW




For further reading on the grammatical construction of Hebrews 1:8 see LINK below
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... eb-18.html

New Jerusalem Bible
https://www.catholic.org/bible/books_bible.php

To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...

GOD, JESUS and ...THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

Barne's do not {SNIP: don't care}

I dont see anythjng in your post that addresses the specific points made.

[Capbook]

HOW SHOULD HEBREWS 1v8 BE TRANSLATED ?

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... sion=RSVCE

As can be seen above, the verses can be rendered "God is thy throne". The Greek for Hebrews 1:8 literally reads as follows

Toward [but] the SON the throne of you the GOD into the age of the age

Source: http://www.abarim-publications.com/Inte ... 63in-S-if0


A CHALLENGE TO TRANSLATE

According to expert Greek scholars, the original Greek construction of Heb. 1:8 is somewhat ambiguous and can legitimately be rendered in various ways.

• It is not certain whether ho theos is here the vocative ["your throne, O God"] ... or ho theos is nominative (subject or predicate) with estin (is) understood: God is thy throne" or "Thy throne is God" Either makes good sense." - Dr. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 339
  
  "Both translations ["Your throne is God" and "Your throne, O God"] are possible, so none of the translations we are comparing can be rejected as inaccurate" - Dr. Jason Beduhn in his book Truth in Translation,

Although the Greek allows for various renditions, we have a clue as to the most likely understanding by looking at Psalm 45 verse 7.

PSALMS 45: A KEY TO UNDERSTANDING HEBREWS 1:8

• Hebrews 1:8 is a direct qoute from Psalm 45.
  
  • The Jerusalem Bible renders Psalm 45:6a as: "Your throne, God, shall last for ever and ever." which can be understood as meaning "Your throne (which is ) God, shall last for ever and ever" or "your throne, O god (see USCCB footnote below) , lasts forever"

  
  [*] The footnotes to the NAB were authorized by the American Council of Bishops
  https://bible.usccb.org/bible/psalms/45?7#23045007-1

  Code: Select all

  THE NEW JERUSALEM BIBLE  (2nd edition of this translation)
   
  Your throne [u]is from God[/u], for ever and ever - Psalms 45:7

So, Psalm 45 is speaking about the King (and by extension the promised Jewish Messiah) as a representative of the Almighty and we can hardly think the Hebrews understood the Messiah or the King to literally be Almighty God YHWH [

CONCLUSION The Hebrew and Greek of Hebrews 1:8 can indeed be rendered "thy throne is from God" or "Thy throne (God) lasts forever". Based on Psalms 45:7 it seems reasonable to conclude that either rendition, both of which are grammatically sound, reflects the writer's implied intention as being that the One spoken of is supported and appointed by God rather than is Almighty God himself.

JW




For further reading on the grammatical construction of Hebrews 1:8 see LINK below
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... eb-18.html

New Jerusalem Bible
https://www.catholic.org/bible/books_bible.php

To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...

GOD, JESUS and ...THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

Barne's do not {SNIP: don't care}

I dont see anythjng in your post that addresses the specific points made.

Your conclusion as "thy throne is from God" isn't that adding the original Greek writings?

That it is necessary to alter or to add anything to what is there said in explanation of the passage. As it clearly proves that Christ is Divine.

[onewithhim]

HOW SHOULD HEBREWS 1v8 BE TRANSLATED ?

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... sion=RSVCE

As can be seen above, the verses can be rendered "God is thy throne". The Greek for Hebrews 1:8 literally reads as follows

Toward [but] the SON the throne of you the GOD into the age of the age

Source: http://www.abarim-publications.com/Inte ... 63in-S-if0


A CHALLENGE TO TRANSLATE

According to expert Greek scholars, the original Greek construction of Heb. 1:8 is somewhat ambiguous and can legitimately be rendered in various ways.

• It is not certain whether ho theos is here the vocative ["your throne, O God"] ... or ho theos is nominative (subject or predicate) with estin (is) understood: God is thy throne" or "Thy throne is God" Either makes good sense." - Dr. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 339
  
  "Both translations ["Your throne is God" and "Your throne, O God"] are possible, so none of the translations we are comparing can be rejected as inaccurate" - Dr. Jason Beduhn in his book Truth in Translation,

Although the Greek allows for various renditions, we have a clue as to the most likely understanding by looking at Psalm 45 verse 7.

PSALMS 45: A KEY TO UNDERSTANDING HEBREWS 1:8

• Hebrews 1:8 is a direct qoute from Psalm 45.
  
  • The Jerusalem Bible renders Psalm 45:6a as: "Your throne, God, shall last for ever and ever." which can be understood as meaning "Your throne (which is ) God, shall last for ever and ever" or "your throne, O god (see USCCB footnote below) , lasts forever"

  
  [*] The footnotes to the NAB were authorized by the American Council of Bishops
  https://bible.usccb.org/bible/psalms/45?7#23045007-1

  Code: Select all

  THE NEW JERUSALEM BIBLE  (2nd edition of this translation)
   
  Your throne [u]is from God[/u], for ever and ever - Psalms 45:7

So, Psalm 45 is speaking about the King (and by extension the promised Jewish Messiah) as a representative of the Almighty and we can hardly think the Hebrews understood the Messiah or the King to literally be Almighty God YHWH [

CONCLUSION The Hebrew and Greek of Hebrews 1:8 can indeed be rendered "thy throne is from God" or "Thy throne (God) lasts forever". Based on Psalms 45:7 it seems reasonable to conclude that either rendition, both of which are grammatically sound, reflects the writer's implied intention as being that the One spoken of is supported and appointed by God rather than is Almighty God himself.

JW




For further reading on the grammatical construction of Hebrews 1:8 see LINK below
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... eb-18.html

New Jerusalem Bible
https://www.catholic.org/bible/books_bible.php

To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...

GOD, JESUS and ...THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

Barne's do not {SNIP: don't care}

I dont see anythjng in your post that addresses the specific points made.

Your conclusion as "thy throne is from God" isn't that adding the original Greek writings?

That it is necessary to alter or to add anything to what is there said in explanation of the passage. As it clearly proves that Christ is Divine.

Yes he is divine but not God Almighty. "Divine" means "of, from, or like God or a god; more than humanly excellent, gifted, or beautiful." (Illustrated Oxford Dictionary, 1998)

And have you not gleaned yet from all of the discussion that Greek translation is different from English? We have to add certain words to round out the meaning. It's like if in the Greek it is said, "Rover is dog." It has no article, so we know that Rover is not the only dog. Now we have to make it understandable in English, so we say, "Rover is a dog." We are not adding to the meaning. We are simply following the rules of translation from Greek to English.

"In Hebrews 1:8 we have two nouns in the nominative form: 'throne' and 'God.' The verb 'is' might go between these two nouns, as it does in dozens of cases of saying 'x' is 'y' in the New Testament. If that is so, then the sentence reads: 'Your throne is God, forever and ever.' The NRSV and the TEV translators also recognize this as a possible translation of this verse, and include it in a footnote in their respective translations." (Truth in Translation by Jason BeDuhn, page 98.)

[John17_3]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #1761]

Hi.
When you say "(I think), is that to say, you don't know, but this is a personal view?
Is there a reference that I can find support for this view?

At Matthew 15:28, the Ō here is not the same as ὁ.
You can see there is a difference. One is an exclamation - Oh. The other is the definite article - the.

Later, for reasons that still aren't fully clear to me, Hellenistic Greek started using definite articles in the same situations, mostly in cases where the vocative is indistinguishable from nominative. There are unambiguous examples in Matthew 11:26 (ναὶ ὁ πατήρ, "Yes, Father.") and Luke 8:54 (ἡ παῖς, ἔγειρε, "Child, arise.").

It may be the case of trying to understand a language that we do not understand.
I rely on the experts to help me in this area. Strong's is usually a good helper.

Thanks for trying, though.

[Difflugia]

It may be the case of trying to understand a language that we do not understand.
I rely on the experts to help me in this area. Strong's is usually a good helper.

Thanks for trying, though.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to tell you. Here's a condensed synthesis:

• Early Ancient Greek used ὦ as a "vocative" particle, which indicates direct address.
• According to ChatGPT, the English vocative "O" arrived via Middle English, via Latin, ultimately from Greek ὦ. Wiktionary corroborates this.
• Later forms of Greek including Koine began using the definite article to signal a vocative. Why they did so isn't clear to me, but they most definitely did so. I gave you examples from the Bible.
• The example at Hebrews 1:8 is ambiguous. Grammatically, "the God" here could either mean that "the throne is God" or be directly addressing God.

When I started the previous response to you, I wasn't sure if English "O" was etymologically related to ὦ or ὁ as either seemed plausible. It turns out it's ὦ. That's mostly beside the point, though. Using "O God" in Hebrews 1:8 is based on the likelihood that the definite article is meant as an indicator of direct address, not because it's similar to ὁ.

[onewithhim]

It may be the case of trying to understand a language that we do not understand.
I rely on the experts to help me in this area. Strong's is usually a good helper.

Thanks for trying, though.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to tell you. Here's a condensed synthesis:

• Early Ancient Greek used ὦ as a "vocative" particle, which indicates direct address.
• According to ChatGPT, the English vocative "O" arrived via Middle English, via Latin, ultimately from Greek ὦ. Wiktionary corroborates this.
• Later forms of Greek including Koine began using the definite article to signal a vocative. Why they did so isn't clear to me, but they most definitely did so. I gave you examples from the Bible.
• The example at Hebrews 1:8 is ambiguous. Grammatically, "the God" here could either mean that "the throne is God" or be directly addressing God.

When I started the previous response to you, I wasn't sure if English "O" was etymologically related to ὦ or ὁ as either seemed plausible. It turns out it's ὦ. That's mostly beside the point, though. Using "O God" in Hebrews 1:8 is based on the likelihood that the definite article is meant as an indicator of direct address, not because it's similar to ὁ.

The definite articles to both "Gods" shows that it is the Father, YHWH who is referenced both times. "God is your throne forever" shows the article because it is the Almighty YHWH who is being spoken about. "God, your God" in verse 9 refers to the Father also. None of the articles refer to the Son.

[Difflugia]

The definite articles to both "Gods" shows that it is the Father, YHWH who is referenced both times.

No. Regardless of your theology, if Jesus can ever be referred to as θεὸς, then using a definite article as a vocative indicator wouldn't somehow be invalid.

"God is your throne forever" shows the article because it is the Almighty YHWH who is being spoken about.

Or else the person being spoken to is being referred to as a god. One or the other. It's ambiguous.

"God, your God" in verse 9 refers to the Father also. None of the articles refer to the Son.

You can assert that if you want and you can personally harmonize it that way if you want, but that and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee. There's no grammatical reason that the Son can't be equated with the Father, so your argument is no more than your conviction that he never is. That is, shall we say, of limited value.