JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[Capbook]

HEBREWS 1: 7 DOES PAUL SAY ALMIGHTY GOD (YHWH) THE FATHER ADDRESSES HIS SON AS HIS GOD?


HEBREWS 1: 7, 8 says "Also, he says about the angels: “He makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.” 8 But about the Son..." NWT, so no, so the words Paul quotes were not God speaking to or addressing his son but speaking ABOUT his son. Note various translations of the same passage below ...

New International Version
But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

English Standard Version
But of the Son he says

Berean Standard Bible
But about the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

New American Standard Bible
But regarding the Son He says ...

NASB 1995
But of the Son He says ...

NASB 1977
But of the Son He says ...

Legacy Standard Bible
But of the Son He says ...

American Standard Version
but of the Son he saith ...

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But concerning The Son, he said ...

Contemporary English Version
But God says about his Son ...

English Revised Version
but of the Son he saith ...

GOD'S WORD® Translation
But God said about his Son, ...

Good News Translation
About the Son, however, God said: ...

International Standard Version
But about the Son he says, ...

Majority Standard Bible
But about the Son He says: ...

New American Bible
but of the Son: ...

NET Bible
but of the Son he says, ...

New Revised Standard Version
But of the Son he says, ...

New Heart English Bible
But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your Kingdom.

Weymouth New Testament
But of His Son, He says, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and for ever, and the sceptre of Thy Kingdom is a sceptre of absolute justice.

World English Bible
But of the Son he says ...

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Who does the Father address the word "your kingdom" in that verse.
As the Father said that unto the Son, so Jesus Christ must be God, and indeed the design of the apostle is to prove that. Those words here quoted from Ps 45:6-7, which the ancient Chaldee paraphrase, and the most intelligent rabbis, refer to the Jewish Messiah.

If you say to your son in compare to your daughter's grade, "But unto your son you said, your grade is perfect, maintain it especially your Math subject." Are you not talking to your son?

Heb 1:8
8 But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
NKJV

[Capbook]

Then why the Father did not say, "therefore God, even thy Almighty God" to be understood they are not equal?
This verse proves they are equal then.

Heb 1:9
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
KJV

Paul was quoting from the Hebrew scriptures, there was not doubt in the Hebrew bible that YHWH is the Almighty.






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That is not what the original Greek says, see the Greek "throne" comes first than the Greek word "God". So the rendering of KJV is correct.

Heb 1:8 But G1161  unto G4314  the G3588  Son G5207  he saith, Thy G4675  throne, G2362  O God, G2316  is for ever and ever: G1519 G165 G165  a sceptre G4464  of righteousness G2118  is the G3588  sceptre G4464  of thy G4675  kingdom. G932 

Heb 1:8 προς G4314 PREP  δε G1161 CONJ  τον G3588 T-ASM  υιον G5207 N-ASM  ο G3588 T-NSM  θρονος G2362 N-NSM  σου G4771 P-2GS  ο G3588 T-NSM  θεος G2316 N-NSM  εις G1519 PREP  τον G3588 T-ASM  αιωνα G165 N-ASM  του G3588 T-GSM  αιωνος G165 N-GSM  ραβδος G4464 N-NSF  ευθυτητος G2118 N-GSF  η G3588 T-NSF  ραβδος G4464 N-NSF  της G3588 T-GSF  βασιλειας G932 N-GSF  σου G4771 P-2GS 

Heb 1:8 πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν· ὁ θρόνος σου, ὁ Θεός, εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος· ῥάβδος εὐθύτητος ἡ ῥάβδος τῆς βασιλείας σου.

[JehovahsWitness]

HOW SHOULD HEBREWS 1v8 BE TRANSLATED ?

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... sion=RSVCE

As can be seen above, the verses can be rendered "God is thy throne". The Greek for Hebrews 1:8 literally reads as follows

Toward [but] the SON the throne of you the GOD into the age of the age

Source: http://www.abarim-publications.com/Inte ... 63in-S-if0


A CHALLENGE TO TRANSLATE

According to expert Greek scholars, the original Greek construction of Heb. 1:8 is somewhat ambiguous and can legitimately be rendered in various ways.

• It is not certain whether ho theos is here the vocative ["your throne, O God"] ... or ho theos is nominative (subject or predicate) with estin (is) understood: God is thy throne" or "Thy throne is God" Either makes good sense." - Dr. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 339
  
  "Both translations ["Your throne is God" and "Your throne, O God"] are possible, so none of the translations we are comparing can be rejected as inaccurate" - Dr. Jason Beduhn in his book Truth in Translation,

Although the Greek allows for various renditions, we have a clue as to the most likely understanding by looking at Psalm 45 verse 7.

PSALMS 45: A KEY TO UNDERSTANDING HEBREWS 1:8

• Hebrews 1:8 is a direct qoute from Psalm 45.
  
  • The Jerusalem Bible renders Psalm 45:6a as: "Your throne, God, shall last for ever and ever." which can be understood as meaning "Your throne (which is ) God, shall last for ever and ever" or "your throne, O god (see USCCB footnote below) , lasts forever"

  
  [*] The footnotes to the NAB were authorized by the American Council of Bishops
  https://bible.usccb.org/bible/psalms/45?7#23045007-1

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  THE NEW JERUSALEM BIBLE  (2nd edition of this translation)
   
  Your throne [u]is from God[/u], for ever and ever - Psalms 45:7

So, Psalm 45 is speaking about the King (and by extension the promised Jewish Messiah) as a representative of the Almighty and we can hardly think the Hebrews understood the Messiah or the King to literally be Almighty God YHWH [

CONCLUSION The Hebrew and Greek of Hebrews 1:8 can indeed be rendered "thy throne is from God" or "Thy throne (God) lasts forever". Based on Psalms 45:7 it seems reasonable to conclude that either rendition, both of which are grammatically sound, reflects the writer's implied intention as being that the One spoken of is supported and appointed by God rather than is Almighty God himself.

JW




For further reading on the grammatical construction of Hebrews 1:8 see LINK below
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... eb-18.html

New Jerusalem Bible
https://www.catholic.org/bible/books_bible.php

To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...

GOD, JESUS and ...THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

[onewithhim]

The meanings are not distorted in any of those examples.

This is categorically false. If you think you can make your case, pick one to defend. And by defend, I mean more than just repeat an assertion.

In fact, the "I have been" translation is the most accurate rendering.

ἐγὼ εἰμί is in the present tense. Translating it as perfect past literally cannot be "the most accurate rendering" when compared to "I am."

The NWT does not conform verses to align with JW belief.

No? So the scare quotes in 1 Samuel aren't theologically motivated?

Jason BeDuhn says that the NWT is the most accurate and has no bone to pick except accuracy in translation.

And I'm sure Tom Cruise has glowing things to say about Dianetics.

See pages 38 and 39 in the excellent book "Truth in Translation" by BeDuhn.

He makes much slicker apologetic arguments elsewhere. The best he can muster in the description on those pages is that it's OK if the NWT is biased because everybody is biased.

If I'm not mistaken, BeDuhn says that the NWT is the least biased of any translation. Have you read his book?

A comment on "I Am".......It is accurately translated in the NWT to "I have been." Centuries ago someone noticed that in Exodus 3:14 the KJV rendered it "I Am." So they took the liberty to say that Jesus was referring to that when he said "ego eimi." But the verse in question in Exodus does not necessarily translate to "I Am." Other versions of the Bible say that the words in Exodus could very well be "I WILL BE THAT I WILL BE," from Leeser; "I Will Become Whatsoever I Please," Rotherham; and "I Will Be There Howsoever I Will Be There," Everett Fox. So we have "I Will" in place of "I Am." Did Jesus say "Before Abraham was born I Will"?

If "ego eimi" means that the person saying it is God, then the man that was blind at John 9:9 is also God. He said the exact words that Jesus spoke. So is the blind man also God?

[Difflugia]

If I'm not mistaken, BeDuhn says that the NWT is the least biased of any translation.

You're mistaken. On page 163, he says that the NAB is the least biased and the NWT holds a "close second."

What he says on the pages you cite is this:

But the facts are that all of the translations considered in this book are products of people with theological commitments, that all contain biased translations of one sort or another, and that the NW deserves to be assessed for accuracy by the same standards applied to the others.

The interesting thing is that he chooses particular verses that the NWT specifically catch flak for and he justifies its translation with the same apologetic arguments that we find elsewhere for the NWT.

Have you read his book?

A comment on "I Am".......It is accurately translated in the NWT to "I have been." Centuries ago someone noticed that in Exodus 3:14 the KJV rendered it "I Am." So they took the liberty to say that Jesus was referring to that when he said "ego eimi." But the verse in question in Exodus does not necessarily translate to "I Am." Other versions of the Bible say that the words in Exodus could very well be "I WILL BE THAT I WILL BE," from Leeser; "I Will Become Whatsoever I Please," Rotherham; and "I Will Be There Howsoever I Will Be There," Everett Fox. So we have "I Will" in place of "I Am." Did Jesus say "Before Abraham was born I Will"?

So, your contention is that Exodus 3:14 shouldn't have been translated as ἐγὼ εἰμί, therefore when Jesus is written as saying ἐγὼ εἰμί, it shoudl be translated in a way that matches neither the Hebrew nor the Greek? I don't follow.

εἰμί is active present tense. ἐγὼ εἰμί means "I am." Because this is how the Septuagint translates אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה of Exodus 3:14, there developed a Jewish tradition that was, according to the Talmud, contemporary with Jesus that "I AM" is synonymous with the name of God. So, your contention is that since ἐγὼ εἰμί isn't a proper translation of אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה, translating ἐγὼ εἰμί into English that matches neither the Greek nor the Hebrew is somehow "accurately translated?" I don't follow.

If "ego eimi" means that the person saying it is God, then the man that was blind at John 9:9 is also God. He said the exact words that Jesus spoke. So is the blind man also God?

Perhaps that's what the author intended. Would it be more accurate for the translator to obscure that potential connection if she doesn't think so? That's been your argument.

[historia]

That is not what the original Greek says, see the Greek "throne" comes first than the Greek word "God". So the rendering of KJV is correct.

One thing to keep in mind here is that Greek is a highly inflected language. That means that, in Greek, you change the endings of words to indicate how they function grammatically in a sentence. For that reason, the order of words doesn't matter as much in Greek as it does in English, where the placement of nouns, in particular, indicate their function in a sentence.

The fact that thronos ("throne") proceeds theos ("God") in the Greek of Hebrews 1:8 doesn't tell us much.

[historia]

It is not certain whether ho theos is here the vocative ["your throne, O God"] ... or ho theos is nominative (subject or predicate) with estin (is) understood: God is thy throne" or "Thy throne is God" Either makes good sense." - Dr. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 339

"Both translations ["Your throne is God" and "Your throne, O God"] are possible, so none of the translations we are comparing can be rejected as inaccurate" - Dr. Jason Beduhn in his book Truth in Translation

For the record, I agree with this. Either rendering appears to be grammatically possible.

I think Difflugia has made a good argument above as to why "your throne, O God" is the more probable rendering.

source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... sion=RSVCE

As can be seen above there should be no contention as to the translation of this verse as their own bibles approve the reading "God is thy throne".

It's not clear to me why you're making an appeal to Catholic sources here, my friend. It doesn't appear that Capbook is Roman Catholic -- as his stated preference for the KJV would suggest -- but maybe I'm wrong?

Hebrews 1:8 is a direct qoute from Psalms 45. The footnote [ *] to Psalms 45:7 in the Catholic NABRE states that {quote} "Heb 1:8 applies Ps 45v7 to Christ." {end quote} . With this in mind, note how the the Catholic Jerusalem Bible renders Psalms 45:7.

Code: Select all

JERUSALEM BIBLE 
 
Your throne is from God, for ever and ever - Psalms 45:7

Taking the Catholic reasoning to its natural conclusion then, if Psalms "applies to Christ" and Hebrews quotes Psalms, then Hebrews must mean that Jesus throne is from God.

CONCLUSION Catholic Bibles recognise that the Hebrew and Greek of Hebrews 1:8 can indeed be rendered "thy throne is from God". Based on Psalms 45:7 it seems reasonable to conclude that this translation, which is grammatically sound, better reflects the writer's implied intention.

That was quite a tangled argument. Let's unpick it.

First of all, the Jerusalem Bible renders Psalm 45:6a as: "Your throne, God, shall last for ever and ever." What you've quoted above is the New Jerusalem Bible (i.e., the second edition of this translation). The most recent (third) edition, the Revised New Jerusalem Bible, I believe, renders this as "Your throne, O God, shall endure for ever."

Second, none of these translations, including the New Jersualem Bible, renders Hebrews 1:8 as "your throne is from God" in either the main of the text or in a footnote, as that is simply an untenable translation of the Greek. So your assertion here that "Catholic Bibles recognize that . . . Hebrews 1:8 can be rendered" this way is simply wrong. No Catholic Bible even offers this as a possibility.

Third, this Jerusalem Bible family of translations was intended more for liturgical and personal reading than careful historical or theological study. As I understand it, the latest version, the RNJB, tries to be more literal, which is why it renders Psalm 45:6 the way it does. But these translations should not be used as the basis for any argument, let alone the kind of triple-bank-shot argument you're making here where you're appealing to a single, paraphrastic translation from the Hebrew of Psalm 45:6 to make an argument as to what an author writing in Greek, quoting the LXX (not the Hebrew) of Psalm 45:6, was intending.

The footnotes to the NAB were authorized by the American Council of Bishops

Indeed, let's read the one for Hebrews 1:8:

[1:8-12] O God: the application of the name "God" to the Son derives from the preexistence mentioned in Heb 1:2-3; the psalmist had already used it of the Hebrew king in the court style of the original. See note on Ps 45:6. It is also important for the author's christology that in Heb 1:10-12 an Old Testament passage addressed to God is redirected to Jesus.

Sounds right to me. Who are we to argue against the USCCB?

[historia]

the excellent book "Truth in Translation" by BeDuhn.

His work is scholarly and accurate, I would say.

And that includes, I assume, his "scholarly and accurate" assesment that the NWT's insertion of "Jehovah" into the New Testament is completely unjustified? See the Appendix.

[JehovahsWitness]

That was quite a tangled argument. Let's unpick it.

Thanks for your response, errors duly corrected. I tweaked it to try and make it all a little more coherent. Feedback is always appreciated from you Historia.

[John17_3]

[Replying to Capbook in post #1751]

Hi Capbook.
I was looking at the Greek ὁ, and I did not find any reference for this word being "Oh", or "O", in English.
Rather, the Greek word ὁ means "the".

So, the verse would correctly be rendered "Your throne, the God, is forever and ever..."
Since we normally don't read English with the definite article. for example, John 1:1 ...the Word was with the (ὁ) God, it would read as rendered by the following translations:

Christian Standard Bible
Your throne, God, is forever and ever...

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Your throne, God, is forever and ever...

The rendered "God is your throne" would therefore be correct.

I'm not sure why some translations, put ὁ as O, but the most likely reason, is due to a doctrinal view, because that is quite strange, isn't it? It's as if they think ὁ is an actual letter O.
What do you think? Have you ever looked into this before?