Jesus Christ has a God that he worships

[onewithhim]

Jesus said that we all must love Jehovah our God and worship only Him. He stated clearly that his Father was the only true God (John 17:3); he didn't say that we are the only true God. In many places in the Scriptures he calls the Father "my God."

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3, KJV)

"Jesus saith unto her [Mary], Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father, but go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God. (John 20:17, KJV)

"At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34, KJV)

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall no more go out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12, KJV)

I think Jesus wants us to recognize that his Father, Jehovah, is God, and he is God's Son. (John 10:36) What do you make of this?

[Capbook]

It seems to much to ask a trinitarian to believe Jesus, the one they claim to be following. Jesus is 100% in subjection to his God and Father. The Father commands him. John 15:10--Jesus says --If you observe( obey) my commandments you will remain in my love, just as i have observed( obeyed) the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.---All can clearly see if Jesus didn't obey his Fathers commandments he wouldn't remain in his Fathers love.--BELIEVE JESUS trinitarians, you are being mislead.
The Father is greater than i--a quote from Jesus.

Calvin's understanding of that phrase, that it must have referred to his human nature and also he also believe of Jesus eternal Divinity.

John 14:28
For the Father is greater than I. This passage has been tortured in various ways. The Aryans, in order to prove that Christ is some sort of inferior God, argued that he is less than the Father. The orthodox Fathers, to remove all ground for such a calumny, said that this must have referred to his human nature; but as the Aryans abused this testimony, so the reply given by the Fathers to their objection was neither correct nor appropriate; for Christ does not now speak either of his human nature, or of his eternal Divinity, but, accommodating himself to our weakness, places himself between God and us; and, indeed, as it has not been granted to us to reach the height of God, Christ descended to us, that he might raise us to it. You ought to have rejoiced, he says, because I return to the Father; for this is the ultimate object at which you ought to aim. By these words he does not show in what respect he differs in himself from the Father, but why he descended to us; and that was that he might unite us to God; for until we have reached that point, we are, as it were, in the middle of the course.
(from Calvin's Commentaries)

Calvin is wrong. Jesus isn't God, He wasn't called God at John 1:1 in the Greek lexicons he is called god small g.

Many differs in interpretation of John 1:1.
But I believe it would be hard to mis-interpret this verse.
Rom 9:5
5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
NIV

[JehovahsWitness]

I'm not asking if Jesus shines physically, I'm asking if the radiance [Greek: apaugasma ] Paul described is SHINY? It’s a simple enough question YES or NO?

Jesus is said to be the radiance

And what does the word Greek word " "apaugasma" mean. Please explain (in Whichever language you wish to communicate), with academic reference(s) .

source STRONGS #541
*EFFULGENCE: the ability to shine brightly (https://dictionary.cambridge.org )

...if you want to use that English word...

Let's not use the English word; let's use the Greek word and you explain (in whatever language you choose to communicate ) what that Greek word carakthr means. Please reference your explanation.

source Strings #5481

.... "did Jesus CALL human Judges "ehohim/theos" It's a simple enough question YES or NO?

I already answered yes.

So the disciples (that listened to Jesus) were familiar with human "elohim/theos" Correct?

Okay. Then why don’t you think verse 13 is describing the Lamb as also receiving worship?

Well in my personal opinion, because faithful subjects only worship YHWH so I presume those in the scene described were faithful (Mat 4:10)

[JehovahsWitness]

The Word of God is true, but the interpretation therein matters.

Yes that is true I disagree with Calvin's interpretation. I disagree with that particular quote of Adam Clark as well.

[The Tanager]

And what does the word Greek word " "apaugasma" mean. Please explain (in Whichever language you wish to communicate), with academic reference(s) .

source STRONGS #541
*EFFULGENCE: the ability to shine brightly (https://dictionary.cambridge.org )

The Tanager wrote: ↑
Fri May 31, 2024 2:31 pm
...if you want to use that English word...
Let's not use the English word; let's use the Greek word and you explain (in whatever language you choose to communicate ) what that Greek word carakthr means. Please reference your explanation.

source Strings #5481

I’ve been working off of these meanings. The brightness, off-flash of God’s glory (alluding to the Shekinah presence). Jesus is then called the engraving of God’s underlying substance or reality (hupostasis, Greek’s strong #5287). Jesus is a representation of God in that sense, not in the sense of one person representing a different person in a court of law, but in the sense that God engraved Who He is, His reality in Jesus; that Jesus is the exact copy or representation of Who God is.

So the disciples (that listened to Jesus) were familiar with human "elohim/theos" Correct?

Yes, they were familiar with humans being accused of acting like false gods.

Well in my personal opinion, because faithful subjects only worship YHWH so I presume those in the scene described were faithful (Mat 4:10)

Correct any misunderstanding I have of your claim, but you appear to be reasoning something like this:

1. The question before us is whether the Lamb is being worshiped in Rev 5:13
2. Rev 5:13 shows worshiped offered “to one seated on the throne” via the statement “praise, honor, glory, and ruling power forever and ever”
3. Rev 5:13 doesn’t distinguish linguistically from the same thing being given “to the Lamb”
4. Therefore, we can’t say there are linguistic reasons to conclude the Lamb isn’t being worshiped.
5. However, faithful servants only worship YHWH
6. The Lamb isn’t YHWH
7. Therefore, the Lamb can’t be worshiped here in this verse

Is that a fair understanding of your reasoning about this verse?

[JehovahsWitness]

...I’ve been working off of these meanings. .... (hupostasis, Greek’s strong #5287)

I see , Well my question pertained to the meaning of [1]"radiance" ....

Jesus is said to be the radiance

And what does the word Greek word {for radiance} " "apaugasma" mean

source STRONGS #541
*EFFULGENCE: the ability to shine brightly (https://dictionary.cambridge.org )

So I'll repeat my question : what does the Greek word translated into the English "radiance" , mean? (You can explain what the Greek means in any language you choose (I have google translate).

... Jesus is a representation of God .. in the sense that God engraved Who He is, His reality in Jesus; that Jesus is the exact copy or representation of Who God is.

How can the copy also be the original? The copy, by definition, cannot exist without the original but the original can exist without its copy.

So the disciples (that listened to Jesus) were familiar with human "elohim/theos" Correct?

Yes...

So, are you suggesting in the minds of the early disciples all those "elohim/theos" were equal to the Supreme Creator YHWH the Almighty Elohim/theos?

7. Therefore, the Lamb can’t be worshiped here in this verse
...Is that a fair understanding of your reasoning about this verse?

No. Therefore we cannot come to a definitive conclusion as to whether the lamb is worshipped or not from Rev 5:13 verse.

[The Tanager]

I’ve been working off of these meanings. The brightness, off-flash of God’s glory (alluding to the Shekinah presence).

So I'll repeat my question : what does the Greek word translated into the English "radiance" , mean?

Since you missed my answer (which used the translation you provided), I bolded it above.

How can the copy also be the original? The copy, by definition, cannot exist without the original but the original can exist without its copy.

There are different kinds of copies, just like there are with representations and a ton of other words in English. DNA copies itself, for instance, in a way that’s different from a photocopy of a document.

Yes, they were familiar with humans being accused of acting like false gods.

So, are you suggesting in the minds of the early disciples all those "elohim/theos" were equal to the Supreme Creator YHWH the Almighty Elohim/theos?

I clearly did not suggest that. I explicitly said the humans called elohim/theos were compared to false gods instead of YHWH.

1. The question before us is whether the Lamb is being worshiped in Rev 5:13
2. Rev 5:13 shows worshiped offered “to one seated on the throne” via the statement “praise, honor, glory, and ruling power forever and ever”
3. Rev 5:13 doesn’t distinguish linguistically from the same thing being given “to the Lamb”
4. Therefore, we can’t say there are linguistic reasons to conclude the Lamb isn’t being worshiped.
5. However, faithful servants only worship YHWH
6. The Lamb isn’t YHWH
7. Therefore, the Lamb can’t be worshiped here in this verse

No. Therefore we cannot come to a definitive conclusion as to whether the lamb is worshipped or not from Rev 5:13 verse.

Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding. Why do you believe #6?

[JehovahsWitness]

Since you missed my answer (which used the translation you provided), I bolded it above.

You seem to have misunderstood my request, I am asking for an academic reference from a biblical Greek language expert that provides a definition for the meaning of the word Greek word under discussion , radiance. Would you like to try again?

How can the copy also be the original? The copy, by definition, cannot exist without the original but the original can exist without its copy.

There are different kinds of copies, just like there are with representations and a ton of other words in English..

So let's leave English aside and just stick to the Greek. What is the meaning of the Greek word Paul chose? Please provide an academic reference from a biblical Greek language expert that provides support for the answer to this question.

So, are you suggesting in the minds of the early disciples all those "elohim/theos" were equal to the Supreme Creator YHWH the Almighty Elohim/theos?

I clearly did not suggest that.

So is it true that the early Jewish disciples of Jesus were familiar with the notion of a Supreme Creator elohim/theos, other “spiritual beings" elohim/theos and "human" elohim/theos, that were not equal to the aforementioned?

6. The Lamb isn’t YHWH .... Why do you believe #6?

How is that relevant ?

[Capbook]

The Word of God is true, but the interpretation therein matters.

Yes that is true I disagree with Calvin's interpretation. I disagree with that particular quote of Adam Clark as well.

This is now the Word of God (Rom 9:5), I believe a non-disagreeable text that says Jesus who is God ever all.
Rom 9:5
5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
NIV

[The Tanager]

You seem to have misunderstood my request, I am asking for an academic reference from a biblical Greek language expert that provides a definition for the meaning of the word Greek word under discussion , radiance. Would you like to try again?

I was going off of Strong’s, which you’ve been using. If you don’t accept that as true, then feel free to offer one you are more comfortable with and we can go from there.

So is it true that the early Jewish disciples of Jesus were familiar with the notion of a Supreme Creator elohim/theos, other “spiritual beings" elohim/theos and "human" elohim/theos, that were not equal to the aforementioned?

That depends on what you mean by “not equal to the aforementioned”. If I call my wife a wildflower, I am familiar with (1) actual wildflowers, (2) fake, plastic wildflowers and (3) an aspect of my wife that is like an actual wildflower. Is (3) equal to (1)?

The early Jewish disciples of Jesus were familiar with (1) the Supreme Creator elohim/theos, (2) false god/spiritual being elohim/theos, and (3) an aspect of humans that is like (2).

6. The Lamb isn’t YHWH .... Why do you believe #6?

How is that relevant ?

We have laid out 6 links in your reasoning that gets you to the conclusion that we can’t come to the definitive conclusion as to whether the Lamb is worshiped or not. To rationally get there, all of those steps need to be sound. So, I’m asking you to rationally support step #6.

[JehovahsWitness]

You seem to have misunderstood my request, I am asking for an academic reference from a biblical Greek language expert that provides a definition for the meaning of the word Greek word under discussion , radiance. Would you like to try again?

I was going off of Strong’s, which you’ve been using.

You provided a Reference from Strong's but it was not for the word under discussion [radiance] . Would you like to provide a reference for that word {radiance} ?

The early Jewish disciples of Jesus were familiar with (1) the Supreme Creator elohim/theos, (2) false god/spiritual being elohim/theos, and (3) an aspect of humans that is like (2).

Do you believe the early considered all the Elohim/theos you mentions equal [EQUAL as in of equal power, rank, authority, and influence].

We have laid out 6 links in your reasoning ...

I did not believe you were laying out my reasoning but your understanding of my reasoning and I did nit see the need to correct each point. Or however you wish a summary of my reasoning, please see corrections clarifications in blue below :

1. The question before us is whether the Lamb is being worshiped in Rev 5:13 : Clarification

...the question under discussion is whether Rev 5:13 shows the Lamb as God or not.

No the question under discussion is whether Rev 5:11-14 depicts "the Lamb" (Jesus) as being worshipped or not.

Considération REVELATION 5 verse 13 in isolation

2. Rev 5:13 shows worshiped offered “to one seated on the throne” via the statement “praise, honor, glory, and ruling power forever and ever” Correction: Rev 5:13 show actions which.... [#2a] may be considered worship if directed to the the Almighty; the same actions can [#2b] also simply be considered respectful recognition of authority and position.

3. Rev 5:13 doesn’t distinguish linguistically distinguish from the same thing being given “to the Lamb” : Clarification Rev 5:13 doesn’t distinguish which of the above [#2a] and/or [#2b] is being offerered.

4. Therefore, we can’t say there are linguistic reasons to conclude the Lamb isn’t being worshiped. Clarification: Given [corrected] point #2 &#3 above, there is nothing in the language of Rev 5:13 that establishes whether or not the lamb is being worshipped

5. However, faithful servants only worship YHWHClarification : Rev 5:13 doesn’t doesn't establish that faithful servants only worship YHWH but it is arguably a biblically sound conclusion .

6.The Lamb isn’t YHWH Clarification Rev 5:13 doesn’t establish whether the lamb is YHWH or not but it does identify two individuals with different appellations [titles]

7. Therefore, the Lamb can’t be worshiped here in this verse Correction: CONCLUSION ON VERSE 13: Given the above corrected/clarified point # 2-6 It is impossible to come to a definitive conclusion whether Rev 5:13 is depticting the lamb as being worshipped or not.