Is Judaism Racist?

[earendil]

The OT says no such thing or anything like it. In Jewish tradition, the standards are higher for Jews than for non-Jews. We have 613 commandments; you guys have seven. If it turns out that we ARE talking about who gets into Heaven, Gentiles will have an easier time of it than we will. We don't get preferred seating.

The standards are higher for jews? How can you write this and not realize the intrinsic racism you are promoting?

In all the religions in the world, only in judaism can you be born so. If that is not racism, then what is?

Don't even bother to respond, because you will only make excuses.....and if you don't see the intrinsic racism of your above comments, then you are sick beyond repair.

Sorry..I don't mean to be rude...but sometimes hard situations require hard words.

[JoeyKnothead]

I don't think my last post expressed just how incredulous I am to this claim of Jews as racists. Of course there will always be a nutjob here and there, but how in heck can anyone claim racism is a fundamental part of Jewish teaching?

If a theoretical passage in a religious texts says, "Us Jews are better because we're Jews", this does not necessarily mean as a race, but as a religion. I've personally never met a Jew who I thought felt himself superior simply because he was Jewish. Never. Now I ain't met every Jew, but I've met a good share of em, seen a good share on TV news and such. I just don't see how anyone can think Jews are racists.

Where is the evidence?

Why do the Jews continually face such ludicrous stuff directed towards them?

[earendil]

I answered them as quickly and shortly as possible. I did not feel like writing an entire book. The bits you added I already knew, and if I wrote more your bias would have simply caused you to find something else.

I guess I was right in the very beginning. There is no end to your excuses.

[Goat]

I answered them as quickly and shortly as possible. I did not feel like writing an entire book. The bits you added I already knew, and if I wrote more your bias would have simply caused you to find something else.

I guess I was right in the very beginning. There is no end to your excuses.

Actually, it seems to me that Cnorman has made his point quite clearly. You do not understand Judaism, but you do make accusations without validity against it.

[Cathar1950]

The OT says no such thing or anything like it. In Jewish tradition, the standards are higher for Jews than for non-Jews. We have 613 commandments; you guys have seven. If it turns out that we ARE talking about who gets into Heaven, Gentiles will have an easier time of it than we will. We don't get preferred seating.

The standards are higher for jews? How can you write this and not realize the intrinsic racism you are promoting?

In all the religions in the world, only in judaism can you be born so. If that is not racism, then what is?

Don't even bother to respond, because you will only make excuses.....and if you don't see the intrinsic racism of your above comments, then you are sick beyond repair.

Sorry..I don't mean to be rude...but sometimes hard situations require hard words.

I am inclined to agree with the anthropologist Marvin Harris when he says race is not a fit subject for intelligent discussion.
I tend to think elitist is a better term.
Of course they (some) are and no amount of whining or complaining is going to change the meaning of chosen or elect. Like their Christian descendents (I am granting there is Greek thought and experiences that have influenced Christian evolution but that is also true of the Jewish religions.) being the elect sets up a us and them and competition for sacred space, writings and faith or belief.
In defense of Jews I would say they are just like any other people that have an identity and will see themselves as somehow favored or special. All the ancient peoples felt their gods loved them and punished then as well as fought their wars for them.
When the returning Jews came back they forced fellow Jews to get rid of their foreign wives and families. Is that racist or just elitist?
How self centered or ethnocentric do you have to be to believe that your God uses the other nations to chastise you?

[Cathar1950]

The OT says no such thing or anything like it. In Jewish tradition, the standards are higher for Jews than for non-Jews. We have 613 commandments; you guys have seven. If it turns out that we ARE talking about who gets into Heaven, Gentiles will have an easier time of it than we will. We don't get preferred seating.

Some Jews might think you have 613 and gentiles have 7 but that would be only true to the Jew that thought that not a reality beyond the Jewish beliefs.
Not every Jew follows all 613 commandment and some don't even follow the 7.
I don't think that because you have more rules and it is harder for Jews to be Jewish is a valid argument for not being elitist, but it does show just what lengths they will go to show they are the elect.
The Hebrew writers take both positions one that they are chosen and a special people and those that felt they were not following God's commandments as deserving death enough that they felt it was the cause of all their woes.
We shouldn't whitewash the problems just because someone poorly chose racist as a categorical fault.

[cnorman18]

I answered them as quickly and shortly as possible.

And entirely inadequately, as anyone who read my reply knows. A real student of Judaism would have included the information I provided, especially about the Passover Seder. That alone proves you a liar.

I did not feel like writing an entire book. The bits you added I already knew...

Bullcrap.

If you had, you'd have said so. The "bits" I added were the most important and salient points about those words, and if you had known those facts, you'd have given them and not left yourself so obviously exposed.

...and if I wrote more your bias would have simply caused you to find something else.

Lame bullcrap.

I guess I was right in the very beginning. There is no end to your excuses.

MY excuses?

LOL!

I think the proper term here is "busted." You LIED and you GOT CAUGHT. The total extent of your study of Judaism was the 30 minutes or so you spent frantically looking up definitions of words, with no clue about the significance of the ideas behind them - which is precisely what I intended to demonstrate.

Knowledge of Judaism consists of more than knowing what some Hebrew words mean, and you fell into that yawning pit like a ton of bricks. Your abject ignorance was blatantly obvious, and your gross dishonesty is now proven beyond a doubt. .

Don't even bother to answer all the points and questions you have not dared, to date, to touch. We have all now seen the nature of your arguments and the extent of your integrity and good faith, and are perfectly justified in ignoring and dismissing anything else you have to say as the words of a proven liar.

Have a nice day.

[cnorman18]

The OT says no such thing or anything like it. In Jewish tradition, the standards are higher for Jews than for non-Jews. We have 613 commandments; you guys have seven. If it turns out that we ARE talking about who gets into Heaven, Gentiles will have an easier time of it than we will. We don't get preferred seating.

The standards are higher for jews? How can you write this and not realize the intrinsic racism you are promoting?

In all the religions in the world, only in judaism can you be born so. If that is not racism, then what is?

Don't even bother to respond, because you will only make excuses.....and if you don't see the intrinsic racism of your above comments, then you are sick beyond repair.

Sorry..I don't mean to be rude...but sometimes hard situations require hard words.

I am inclined to agree with the anthropologist Marvin Harris when he says race is not a fit subject for intelligent discussion.

I quite agree.

I tend to think elitist is a better term.
Of course they (some) are...

Previously stipulated.

...and no amount of whining or complaining is going to change the meaning of chosen or elect.

"Chosen" is a word we have used, with the caveats and qualifications (as opposed to "whining" and "complaining") already given.

"Elect" - never.

Like their Christian descendents (I am granting there is Greek thought and experiences that have influenced Christian evolution but that is also true of the Jewish religions.) being the elect sets up a us and them and competition for sacred space, writings and faith or belief.

The implications of "elect," specifically that we are the only ones who will go to Heaven or are first in line, are foreign to Judaism.

Jews have always welcomed and accepted non-Jews as equal to ourselves - in Jewish law, in God's regard, and as having the same rights, dignity and value as any person and any Jew. That principle is enshrined in the Torah itself and is central to Judaism.

Historically, though, that sort of regard and respect has rarely been extended to us by non-Jews. That's why we find it so ironic - and, frankly, a bit obscene - when such criticisms are directed at us. Jews have MUCH more often been the victims of elitism and bigotry rather than the purveyors of them.

In defense of Jews I would say they are just like any other people that have an identity and will see themselves as somehow favored or special.

"Special" - sure, what's wrong with that? We all are.

"Favored" - no, for all the reasons I've already stated.

All the ancient peoples felt their gods loved them and punished then as well as fought their wars for them.

So they, and we, did.

Do we still?

When the returning Jews came back they forced fellow Jews to get rid of their foreign wives and families. Is that racist or just elitist?

I have written elsewhere about the propriety and fairness of judging Judaism by Scriptural narrative without consulting Jewish tradition and teaching about those accounts.

Does one judge the Greek people of today by drawing conclusions from events reported in the Iliad? Those events are much more recent.

How self centered or ethnocentric do you have to be to believe that your God uses the other nations to chastise you?

See above.

Stereotypes and uninformed assumptions are not helpful here. Do you really think it fair or proper to criticize Jews for what we believe when we believe and teach the reverse?

Alternatively, is it fair or proper to assume that we Jews routinely lie about our beliefs to Gentiles? That seems to be implicit in all the criticisms on this thread.

Can we examine that assumption and its implications?

Anyone?

[Cathar1950]

I am not going to bother with what we agree but I don’t necessarily disagree with everything else either. I think we need to be clear that your beliefs or way of life doesn’t speak for all Jews or the histories of Jews.

All the ancient peoples felt their gods loved them and punished then as well as fought their wars for them.

So they, and we, did.

Do we still?

Who exactly is “we�?
Some do, some don’t.

When the returning Jews came back they forced fellow Jews to get rid of their foreign wives and families. Is that racist or just elitist?

I have written elsewhere about the propriety and fairness of judging Judaism by Scriptural narrative without consulting Jewish tradition and teaching about those accounts.

So you don’t think it happened or is it you think something else?
As a people of their books it seems some Jews did feel this way. At least the writers did.
I think it is far to say it is there and if all Jews have outgrown such notions that are just fine with me. I am glad they got over it, now if the Christian could just learn.

Does one judge the Greek people of today by drawing conclusions from events reported in the Iliad? Those events are much more recent.

The writings were not written that far apart as I would place the Torah after Solomon and all the way to Ezra. Much of it was developed between 900 and 500, when was the Iliad written? Now if the Greeks still looked at the Iliad as their book and what it means to be a Greek along with “consulting Jewish Greek tradition and teaching about those accounts� you might have some unspecified point but I hardly see where it is relevant.

Alternatively, is it fair or proper to assume that we Jews routinely lie about our beliefs to Gentiles? That seems to be implicit in all the criticisms on this thread.

You mean they quit eating children?
Of course I don’t think it is proper or true. I am referring to your above statement not the eating of Children.

[cnorman18]

The OT says no such thing or anything like it. In Jewish tradition, the standards are higher for Jews than for non-Jews. We have 613 commandments; you guys have seven. If it turns out that we ARE talking about who gets into Heaven, Gentiles will have an easier time of it than we will. We don't get preferred seating.

Some Jews might think you have 613 and gentiles have 7 but that would be only true to the Jew that thought that not a reality beyond the Jewish beliefs.

Uh, obviously.

Even religious Jews don't read that literally. 613 is a symbolic number, and the 7 Noachide laws are merely a traditional formulation of basic ethics that very few would disagree with, excepting the prohibition of blasphemy that is of course meaningless to non-theists.

Not every Jew follows all 613 commandment and some don't even follow the 7.

NO Jew follows all 613 commandments; that is impossible today.

And of course, any Jew who steals or murders, e.g., would be in violation of the 7.

Your point?

I don't think that because you have more rules and it is harder for Jews to be Jewish is a valid argument for not being elitist...

Only if you stipulate that any group that has any standards of behavior whatever for itself is equally "elitist," and that that is always and everywhere a bad thing. .

...but it does show just what lengths they will go to show they are the elect.

Show me anywnere in Jewish teaching or tradition that that word has ever been used. It was dealt with in my previous post, and it does not apply.

Show that having higher standards of behavior constitutes claiming to be the "elect."

The Hebrew writers take both positions one that they are chosen and a special people and those that felt they were not following God's commandments as deserving death enough that they felt it was the cause of all their woes.

And how are the opinions of people who lived 2,000 and more years ago relevant to the Jews of today?

If you want to know anything about Jews and Judaism - which is rather incumbent upon anone who presumes to judge either - reading the Hebrew Bible is not enough. Find out what we say about that Bible.

We no longer teach that massacring whole villages was the right thing to do. We no longer teach that God rewards or punishes either individuals or whole peoples according to their behavior (actually, that one was never agreed on from the beginning; Job is probably the oldest book in the Bible).

And you know what? We don't slaughter bulls and sheep and pigeons and burn them any more, either.

When you read the Bible, you are not reading either our teachings or our character. I don't understand why this concept is so difficult.

We shouldn't whitewash the problems just because someone poorly chose racist as a categorical fault.

Can we establish that there actually IS a problem first?

I have been saying since I came here that Jews teach the equality and dignity and value of ALL people, and at least as directly and passionately as any other religion I know of. We do not consider ourselves holier or more beloved by God or more ethical or blessed or superior to any other people in any way. Read any book on Judaism written a Jew and it will tell you the same thing.

I note again; the assumption behind every criticism on this thread is that Jews, myself included, routinely and deliberately lie to Gentiles about our beliefs and teachings.

And I ask again if we can examine the truth of that assumption and its implications.

When a Christian of whatever variety talks about what Christians believe, it's common enough for others to say "You're wrong" - but how often has anyone said "THAT'S not what you really believe - what you really believe is THIS"?

When one asks what Jews believe, and a well-read Jew answers, why is that answer so often dismissed or discounted here?

Can anyone give me a reason for that, other than "Jews lie"?

And if that IS the assumption, will anyone here ever have the stones to stand up on their hind legs and admit it openly?

[Cathar1950]

Homer wrote of Troy about the times dated 1275-1240 BCE, 1183 BCE is the traditional date of the fall of Troy around 720 BCE. The Torah’s joining E and J sometime after the fall of Israel in 722. It seems a priestly (P) version of the combined E and J was written in the time of Hezekiah 715-687 BCE while the combined Deuteronimist version with Josiah 640-609 BCE or 641-609 BCE. It seems it was later reworked by Ezra 459 BCE.

They don’t seem that different when you look at the times when they were writng and the times they were writing about. Had the early Christians used or abducted the Greek writings as their foundation we might now be complaining about Greeks instead oif Jews.