witchcraft

[Telora]

Is there any middle ground between the actions that can be considered supernatural witchcraft and the faiths that directly forbid it, what exactly is forbidden and why?

[Cain]

Having had 'personal experiences' in these areas and also having known others who have had likewise, my personal feeling is that the likes of 'witchcraft', 'black magic', ouija and the like can be dangerous to many vulnerable/susceptible minds. While prayer to a 'good' divinity can have positive theraputic and 'other' value.

I quite agree .. there is such a thing as evil forces.
Sometimes they are observable ( through mankind or other creatures ) and sometimes not ( the 'spirit world' )

I quite disagree. Paranormal sciences are unproven, and in my opinion bogus. Witchcraft is not an evil practice, it's an Earth religion based off of Nature and Deistic, having roots in Roman/Greco religions.

There is no such thing as 'Black Magic' in the sense of Black meaning 'evil' or negative, Magick is neutral and the practitioner's intent decides whether it is beneficial or malevolent.

The Ouija is entertainment, it works by the ideo-motor response in us all.

[isa_muhammad]

Witchcraft is not an evil practice..

Depends who's doing it, and what they're doing

[Cain]

Witchcraft is not an evil practice..

Depends who's doing it, and what they're doing

I do believe I stated that, it is the 'intent' that decides whether it is benevolent or malevolent.

[Oldfarmhouse]

Have you ever seen a "deliverance service"? Could you share details about this sort of thing?

Have any of you witnessed actual magic/supernatural that, in your opinion of course, couldn't possibly be explained by natural means (i.e. mental illness or parlour trick)?Tell you the truth, I find it appalling that some people still believe in "demonic possession".

I'm eager for any details any of you is willing to share (the more the better), maybe it will help dispel my impressions.

-Woland

The question I have first is you seem to already have a negative opinion that these are parlor tricks and belief in demonic possession is appalling. Would you believe anything I told you? There are very interesting stories from people I would trust with my life that you can find online. If you have ever seen one you would not doubt its authenticity, peoples face distort, peoples voice change to the point you could not alter it yourself. People have come in and admitted they had been fooling around with black magic and said they felt the spirit enter them. They are not lying and many of them are not christians. I just wonder if any "proof" I could offer would be dismissed unless you see it for yourself.

Actually, I and most other skeptics, are aware of the type of things that you have described. Some of us have seen such behavior first hand. I am one.

the things that you mention can be achieved by acting. "Peoples faces distort." I can distort the appearance of my face right now. "[P]eoples voice change to the point you could not alter it yourself." I can alter my voice to a great extent right now. I can alter the pitch much higher or lower than I normally speak. I can alter the timbre, accent, volume, etc. Look at Mel Blanc -- "The Man of a Thousand voices." I have found no claim that a supernatural force was involved in his ability to create the voices of more than half of the most famous cartoon characters.

I am not accusing anyone of "lying" per se. I'm sure that a great many people who have engaged in or observed such behavior sincerely believe that it is the result of a supernatural entity. But other peoples' sincere belief that the phenomenon is genuine does not convince me that it is. I consider this to be an extraordinary claim and I do require extraordinary evidence.

What kind of proof would convince me? If a "possessed" person were to levitate or perform some other type of activity that clearly violates the known laws of physics -- that would be convincing. One might also consider when and where these people exhibit this behavior. Notice that they never seem to do it when the consequences of acting in such a manner would be extreme. If the behavior was really the result of a supernatural entity that the subject could not control then why does it not happen when such a person is driving down the highway at 65 MPH? Why don't they get possessed in a public place where acting in such a manner is likely to get them arrested, punched, fired, or taken to an institution for observation? They always do it in a place where they are surrounded by other believers -- a safe place.

So -- in a nutshell -- I remain unconvinced.

[Yahu]

And witchraft is obviously a crock.

Just out of curiosity... is there anyone here who seriously doubts the statement above?

Adstar, do you believe that some people on Earth right now are witches?
Does anyone else believe this?

-Woland

I dispute that witchcraft is a crock! I have been in direct conflict with a coven lead by a high priestess of Ashtoreth. I have been the target of many spells and curses. It was witchcraft conducted via worship of ancient pagan deities. It isn't about majic but about control of spiritual forces. Witchcraft was a key element of the ancient pagan religions.

If anyone is interested in the story, I am writing it as a trilogy entitled 'Battling Jezebel'.

[Yahu]

Is there any middle ground between the actions that can be considered supernatural witchcraft and the faiths that directly forbid it, what exactly is forbidden and why?

Witchcraft is dealing in spiritual forces. What is forbidden in Christianity is witchcraft that is rooted in worship high level demonic spiritual beings to get lower level spirits to serve our will. This violates Yah's command to have NO other gods before Him.

Scripture states that 'Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft' but fails to explain. I didn't understand the connection until I was involved in a conflict against a coven as a Christian. Witchcraft and rebellion are flip sides of the same coin. Rebellion is rejecting a valid authority while the broad definition of witchcraft is usurping authority for yourself. General we think of witchcraft as the means of dealing in forbidden spiritual forces and usurping authority over them to perform our will.

Someone mentioned earlier that prayer can be a form of witchcraft. That is correct. If you are praying your will over another's life with out authority over their life it is a form of witchcraft. We are directed to pray that God's will be done, not our will. To pray our will over another is always rejected by God. Another spirit can use the authority God granted Christians over the forces of the enemy to try to preform our will thus making it witchcraft.

Some would classify miracles granted by God as a form of witchcraft. This is incorrect. There are 5 different spiritual groups involved supernatural power. All the manifestations of power of God are conducted via the Holy Spirit. That is not forbidden. It is dealing with spirits of the 4 other spiritual realms that is the problem. Those 4 other spiritual realms are ruled over by the 4 main principalities of the demonic realms.

Generally what we classify as witchcraft is dealing with the worship of 1 or more of those principalities. For example there are two primary goddess over witchcraft. In the Canaanite pantheon they are Asherah and Ashtoreth while the male members are Baal and Molech. Witchcraft was the power behind these pagan religions. Isa 57:9 is a direct reference to doing witchcraft via Molech worship.

Isa 57:9 and thou wentest to the king (Molech) with ointment, and didst multiply thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers afar off, and didst debase thyself unto Sheol.

This entire passage is about the Baalim worship in the Grove on the high place and the worship of Molech in the valley below, the valley of Himmom where children were sacrificed in the fires to Molech. The sacrifice and offerings to Molech was to summon demonic forces to send on assignment via spells and curses. These are the 'messengers sent'. This action is done by debasing, bowing down to the ruler of Sheol/Hell itself. Old Testament Molech worship was direct Satan worship.

The conflict I was in was against a modern day high priestess of Ashtoreth. This principality is known by many different names in different cultures and languages. For example she is the 'great goddess Diana of Ephesus' whose followers caused Paul so much trouble. She holds the title 'queen of Heaven' as presented in Jeremiah. She is presented as the 'great whore of Babylon' in Revelation. The biblical queen Jezebel was a high priestess of Ashtoreth and one of her main focuses was on the destruction of the prophet of Yah. Jezebel was a very powerful witch and why Elijah feared for his life when she sent a death curse after him. The Greeks knew her as Artemis in her early life but as Aphrodite in her later life. The Roman name of Diana Luciferah was a combination of both these manifestations into a single goddess because they knew they were the same individual. This principality is one of two primary goddess of witchcraft as well as being over all Jezebel Spirits within the church to cause problems.

[Slopeshoulder]

Well all that sounds like evidence to supoort that it's a crock.

[McCulloch]

Witchcraft is dealing in spiritual forces.

And so is Christianity. Right?

What is forbidden in Christianity is witchcraft that is rooted in worship high level demonic spiritual beings to get lower level spirits to serve our will. This violates Yah's command to have NO other gods before Him.

Actually, the Wiccans do not see their deities as being demonic. Of course their religion violates the commandment of your particular and somewhat exclusivist god.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

I dispute that witchcraft is a crock! I have been in direct conflict with a coven lead by a high priestess of Ashtoreth. I have been the target of many spells and curses. It was witchcraft conducted via worship of ancient pagan deities. It isn't about majic but about control of spiritual forces. Witchcraft was a key element of the ancient pagan religions.

If anyone is interested in the story, I am writing it as a trilogy entitled 'Battling Jezebel'.

If you are going to keep repeating these claims, in no less than three threads so far by my count, I think you would do well to locate some evidence for them. Do you have any?

[bluethread]

From what I see, what is forbidden in the Scriptures is an expansion on the first three of the ten commandments. Specifically, it speaks of necromancy and association with other gods. These are forbidden, because they are rejections of Adonai.

The manipulation of elements (chemistry) can be frightening do to a fear of that which one does not understand. However, I do not see this as what the Scriptures refer to a s witchcraft. It is my understanding that the latter was added to the definition during the so called "dark ages", when the power of the RCC began to wain do to natural disaster, the rise of Islam and the innovation that was beginning among the free tradesman.