witchcraft

[Telora]

Is there any middle ground between the actions that can be considered supernatural witchcraft and the faiths that directly forbid it, what exactly is forbidden and why?

[Ankhhape]

I'm not getting what the problem is here, the issue with the Abrahamic faiths is not Witchcraft, it is the practice of maleficent magick/sorcery.

Traditional Witchcraft (not Wicca) is a Belief system based on the God and Goddess, within this Tradition magick may be practiced, both benevolent and maleficent.

It is obvious that along with the attempted genocide of Paganism, Christianity damned Greco-Roman magickal practices such as those from the Cult of Hekate.

[Serpent Oracle]

I'm not getting what the problem is here, the issue with the Abrahamic faiths is not Witchcraft, it is the practice of maleficent magick/sorcery.

Traditional Witchcraft (not Wicca) is a Belief system based on the God and Goddess, within this Tradition magick may be practiced, both benevolent and maleficent.

Wicca although originally theologically essentially similar to Taoism, with its polar dualism, also incorporates pantheistic polytheistic and henotheistic belief systems these days. (according to wiki)
I fail to see any significant difference between Old craft and Wicca...personally.

Evidence perhaps that Wicca has greater room for accomodating differing theological beliefs.

[Burninglight]

You mentioned the kids and the she bears and prophet a few times. Those kids sought of did like you are doing. They were in essences mocking God’s prophet, God’s message and God.

And this is yet another example where Jesus did not agree with the God of Abraham.

According to the New Testament rumors, Jesus asked God the Father to forgive those who mocked him, claiming that they "know not what they do".

Well surely little children mocking some guy for being bald would qualify as "knowing not what they do".

After all how could such mockery have hurt the prophet? All it could have bruised would have been his fragile ego. And shouldn't a prophet or saint be above that?

A truly wise sage would have just had a belly laugh and probably played with the kids for a while before finally leaving with his bald head.

How you can support such obvious ignorance as being representative of the "Word of God" is beyond me.

You post gibberish form the Bible like as if it's supposed to be meaningful, but most of that gibberish is just as foolish as the story of the bald prophet. It was written by people like you, who can't see past the ignorance of these absurd stories.

You keep attempting to support them, but all you do is dig yourself deeper and deeper into the absurdities.

Like I said, people were mocking Jesus. Physically beating him, denying his authority, nailing him to a pole and stripping him of his clothing. And what did he do according to these rumors? He said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

Clearly Jesus was far wiser than the bald-headed guy.

Moreover, since you seem to like verses from these fables so much consider the following:


John.5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Luke.23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.


Well, if what John and Luke say here are TRUE, then everything that you've been preaching is for not, because you're preaching against the words of Jesus.

According to these fables, Jesus forgives people for mocking him if they simply know not what they do. (and that would certainly include ALL non-believers).

And if you can believe John's Gospel, then Jesus is the final judge and he's clearly stated that he will indeed forgive people if they merely don't know what they do. And all non-believers would qualify as not "knowing what they are doing" if they don't believe in Jesus.

After all, they can hardly purposefully disobey some authority that they don't recognize.

So you keep preaching against the words of Jesus.

So you're blaspheming against Jesus more than anyone.

And obviously you don't have a clue that you're doing it. Thus you'll probably be forgiven for not knowing what you're doing too.

In fact, as outrageously ambiguous and confused that Christianity has become, even among those who would like to believe it, everyone would qualify as not knowing what they are doing from the most devout clergy to the most vociferous atheists.

In short, no judgement would even be required anymore because Jesus would have to forgive everyone for not knowing what they are doing.

At least certainly in terms of charges of "blaspheme".

Like I say, you're blaspheming against Jesus all the time by proclaiming how you think he would judge people. The Bible can't even be used to support your judgements.

Jesus forgives people for not knowing what they do.

It's right there in the New Testament Gossips.

If you claim otherwise then you blaspheme against the WORD of Jesus.

And now you know, so if you continue to do it you will no longer qualify for not knowing what you are doing.

You better put the Bible down and let Jesus be the judge of others. Because if you continue to judge others in Jesus' name using the Bible you could potentially get yourself in very hot water with Jesus.

He forgives people for not knowing what they do. And that was his FINAL WORD on the cross with his last breath.

And you're going to argue with Jesus' last words?

I wouldn't want to be in your shoes come judgement day!

Jesus came as Savior not a judge, but when He returns, He's coming back as judge. When He came the first time He is the lamb of God who brings salvation and forgiveness. The second time He comes as the Lion of the trible of Judah. It is then you'll see a lot of OT type things before your very eyes.

[Ankhhape]

I'm not getting what the problem is here, the issue with the Abrahamic faiths is not Witchcraft, it is the practice of maleficent magick/sorcery.

Traditional Witchcraft (not Wicca) is a Belief system based on the God and Goddess, within this Tradition magick may be practiced, both benevolent and maleficent.

Wicca although originally theologically essentially similar to Taoism, with its polar dualism, also incorporates pantheistic polytheistic and henotheistic belief systems these days. (according to wiki)
I fail to see any significant difference between Old craft and Wicca...personally.

Evidence perhaps that Wicca has greater room for accomodating differing theological beliefs.

Aside from the obvious age differences and other things, what truly differentiates the two is that Traditional Witchcraft doesn't adhere to anything similar to "An it harm none, do what ye will" as does Wicca.

What makes Traditional Witchcraft what it is, is a whole other thread topic.

[Ankhhape]

You mentioned the kids and the she bears and prophet a few times. Those kids sought of did like you are doing. They were in essences mocking God’s prophet, God’s message and God.

And this is yet another example where Jesus did not agree with the God of Abraham.

According to the New Testament rumors, Jesus asked God the Father to forgive those who mocked him, claiming that they "know not what they do".

Well surely little children mocking some guy for being bald would qualify as "knowing not what they do".

After all how could such mockery have hurt the prophet? All it could have bruised would have been his fragile ego. And shouldn't a prophet or saint be above that?

A truly wise sage would have just had a belly laugh and probably played with the kids for a while before finally leaving with his bald head.

How you can support such obvious ignorance as being representative of the "Word of God" is beyond me.

You post gibberish form the Bible like as if it's supposed to be meaningful, but most of that gibberish is just as foolish as the story of the bald prophet. It was written by people like you, who can't see past the ignorance of these absurd stories.

You keep attempting to support them, but all you do is dig yourself deeper and deeper into the absurdities.

Like I said, people were mocking Jesus. Physically beating him, denying his authority, nailing him to a pole and stripping him of his clothing. And what did he do according to these rumors? He said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

Clearly Jesus was far wiser than the bald-headed guy.

Moreover, since you seem to like verses from these fables so much consider the following:


John.5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Luke.23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.


Well, if what John and Luke say here are TRUE, then everything that you've been preaching is for not, because you're preaching against the words of Jesus.

According to these fables, Jesus forgives people for mocking him if they simply know not what they do. (and that would certainly include ALL non-believers).

And if you can believe John's Gospel, then Jesus is the final judge and he's clearly stated that he will indeed forgive people if they merely don't know what they do. And all non-believers would qualify as not "knowing what they are doing" if they don't believe in Jesus.

After all, they can hardly purposefully disobey some authority that they don't recognize.

So you keep preaching against the words of Jesus.

So you're blaspheming against Jesus more than anyone.

And obviously you don't have a clue that you're doing it. Thus you'll probably be forgiven for not knowing what you're doing too.

In fact, as outrageously ambiguous and confused that Christianity has become, even among those who would like to believe it, everyone would qualify as not knowing what they are doing from the most devout clergy to the most vociferous atheists.

In short, no judgement would even be required anymore because Jesus would have to forgive everyone for not knowing what they are doing.

At least certainly in terms of charges of "blaspheme".

Like I say, you're blaspheming against Jesus all the time by proclaiming how you think he would judge people. The Bible can't even be used to support your judgements.

Jesus forgives people for not knowing what they do.

It's right there in the New Testament Gossips.

If you claim otherwise then you blaspheme against the WORD of Jesus.

And now you know, so if you continue to do it you will no longer qualify for not knowing what you are doing.

You better put the Bible down and let Jesus be the judge of others. Because if you continue to judge others in Jesus' name using the Bible you could potentially get yourself in very hot water with Jesus.

He forgives people for not knowing what they do. And that was his FINAL WORD on the cross with his last breath.

And you're going to argue with Jesus' last words?

I wouldn't want to be in your shoes come judgement day!

Jesus came as Savior not a judge, but when He returns, He's coming back as judge. When He came the first time He is the lamb of God who brings salvation and forgiveness. The second time He comes as the Lion of the trible of Judah. It is then you'll see a lot of OT type things before your very eyes.

Shall I hold my breath?

[Divine Insight]

Jesus came as Savior not a judge, but when He returns, He's coming back as judge. When He came the first time He is the lamb of God who brings salvation and forgiveness. The second time He comes as the Lion of the trible of Judah. It is then you'll see a lot of OT type things before your very eyes.

All you're suggesting is that Jesus' words in the New Testament cannot be trusted, and that his words are untrustworthy.

You are refuting what he actually stood for; love and forgiveness. And instead you're trying to make him into the monstrous "God of Abraham" whose teachings and moral principles Jesus himself rebuked and discarded.

This is why these kinds of morbid "Christianities" that depend on Jesus to be precisely the opposite of his own actions and words are clearly false religions.

You can "claim" to speak for "The Christ", but in truth all you are doing is mocking him yourself and demanding that everything he taught and represented is a lie.

For your "Christianity" to be true, Jesus would have to be a liar because his teachings and obvious moral principles are not in alignment with the monstrous Jesus that you have created.

You have created a Jesus that's just as insane and unrighteous as the God of Abraham who's directives and moral teachings Jesus himself rebuked.

So you distortion of Jesus is nothing more than your own personal hope and dream that Jesus will turn out to be a monster contrary to the love and forgiveness that he clearly taught and stood for.

Why people are so anxious to turn Jesus into an unruly hateful monster is beyond me.

It can't be made to work as far as I can see, because nothing Jesus taught supports your hateful picture of him.

I'll take my chances with Jesus based on what HE supposedly SAID according to these second-hand rumors.

I have no need to believe your derogatory picture of him. The picture you paint of Jesus is not one of divinity, but rather one of demonic ignorance. You demand that Jesus be an unruly bastard.

I don't accept your derogatory views of Jesus. I'm sorry to see that you have such a lowly opinion of him. But I do fully recognize that it's just that. Your opinion of him. Not mine.

I personally think Jesus was a nice guy. Not the hateful monster that you twist him out to be. Whether he was "God" or not is a whole other question. But if he was "God" that would supposedly only make him even more divine. Not the monster that you've created in your interpretations.

It's no wonder that you are so frightened. You've twisted Jesus into a Holy Monster.

Why you've done that is beyond me.

[Divine Insight]

So Christianity cannot be use to object to witchcraft that is used for good works.

It can only be used to object to witchcraft that is being used for evil purposes.

Evil?

What is Evil?

My intents purposes may seem evil to some, to others wholly good and admirable...

Good and Evil are delusions, its all relative.

Sorry...just had to stick that in.

Well, I certainly agree with that to a point. Not everyone will agree with what constitutes "Evil".

Even Burninglight thinks horrible things are "divine" as long as Jesus is the one who is doing them.

Just the same, there are some things that most people will agree upon as being "wrong" (such as child abuse, etc).

Although they might not agree on what constitutes "child abuse". Personally I think that teaching children that they are sinners and that they will be sent to hell unless they condone having God's son nailed to a pole is certainly "child abuse" as emotional terrorism.

It's also "child abuse" because it's teaching a child a mere faith-based belief as if it represents the truth. Which is actually misleading and lying to the child. So here we see intellectual abuse of innocent children too.

But yeah, on your main point I agree. Many things that are considered to be "evil" by one person may not be considered to be "evil" by another. So in general there can be no such thing as absolute evil.

[Divine Insight]

I'm not getting what the problem is here, the issue with the Abrahamic faiths is not Witchcraft, it is the practice of maleficent magick/sorcery.

I was putting it within the context of the question of the OP:

"Is there any middle ground between the actions that can be considered supernatural witchcraft and the faiths that directly forbid it, what exactly is forbidden and why?"

I would take the term "supernatural witchcraft" to be more generic in this sense.

I mean, obviously if the term "witchcraft" is going to be tied directly to a concept of a specific Goddess and God that are not of the Abrahamic faith, then the issue then wouldn't be one of "witchcraft" but rather one of putting other Gods before the God of Abraham.

But that would be a whole different issue.

Traditional Witchcraft (not Wicca) is a Belief system based on the God and Goddess, within this Tradition magick may be practiced, both benevolent and maleficent.

I would totally disagree with that. In fact, many witches would. There are many witches who don't even believe in Gods of any kind. They believe that their supernatural powers aren't even truly "super" natural, but rather they are just natural powers that any human can tap into. You can actually be a complete atheist and practice "witchcraft".


Witchcraft itself is NOT a religion.

In fact, it's actually Wicca that has proclaimed specifically to be a "religion", and it is Wicca that claims to worship a "Goddess and God" specifically.

Although I confess that these terms have become extremely ambiguous themselves in modern times. I've been on many "Wiccan" forums and trust me all those people do is sit around arguing with each other "What is Wicca?". And they almost never agree.

I personally have accepted the term very abstractly.

Christopher Penzcak actually wrote a very popular set of books called "The Temple of Witchcraft". I actually own the whole set and absolutely enjoy his writings immensely. The man is extremely wise.

None the less, what he actually speaks to is clearly the traditions of "Wicca" and not "Witchcraft" in general, because he's constantly harping on the "God and Goddess" the whole way though the entire series of books, not to mention also constantly reinforcing the moral code of "harming none".

So he's really about as "Wiccan" as it possible can get. Even though he 'sells' it as being "Witchcraft" instead of "Wicca". That's because he wanted to avoid all those stupid arguments over the totally ambiguous term "Wicca".

It is obvious that along with the attempted genocide of Paganism, Christianity damned Greco-Roman magickal practices such as those from the Cult of Hekate.

That may be true. But I was referring to Jesus specifically. NOT to the absurd claims that he was "The Christ" with all the bigotry and hatred that entails.


Jesus supported that his "witchcraft" (and it was witchcraft) cannot have come from Satan because he was doing good works and good works cannot be done by evil powers (at least this was his argument). Whether the argument has merit or is lame is a totally seperate issue.

Whether Jesus was "The Christ" or not is also a totally separate issue.

The point remains in every case that Jesus proclaimed that good works cannot be done using evil powers.

That was his "Defense". Therefore if it holds for him, it must hold for everyone.

So my point is that anyone who actually "believes in Jesus" and accepts his WORD to be true, cannot proclaim that "good witches" are evil. Or that their magic comes from evil sources, because for them to proclaim that would be the very same thing as denying Jesus OWN "defense" when challenged by the Pharisees for doing his good works using the power of Satan.

If Jesus' excuse holds true for him, then it must hold true for everyone. Good works cannot be done by evil powers. That was Jesus' OWN DEFENSE. If it's not true, that would mean that Jesus was a LIAR. And potentially doing his "good works" via the power of Satan!

The Christians can't have that!

So they have no choice but to do like Jesus and recognize that ALL good works of magic must necessarily be coming from the divine source of the ultimate "God".

To believe otherwise would require dismissing Jesus' own excuse. And how could they do that without proclaiming Jesus to be a mistaken himself?

[Serpent Oracle]

What makes Traditional Witchcraft what it is, is a whole other thread topic.

I look forward to viewing that thread.
How much of the Old Craft is in fact recorded?

I would like to know for one....if like Druidism an oral tradition lost in time as it was not recorded then I would hesitantly assert that all modern witch craft is effectively Wicca, especially in Britain.

[Serpent Oracle]

But yeah, on your main point I agree. Many things that are considered to be "evil" by one person may not be considered to be "evil" by another. So in general there can be no such thing as absolute evil.

Certainly there are detrimental things and beneficial things to a society, we must legislate accordingly and determine what is or isnt acceptable, using reason.
We cannot be bound by laws created for bronze age Levant nomads.
That is not acceptable.