Freewill vs. Hell

[anontheist]

Freewill verses Hell,

I think this point is very interesting. If you have a Biblical perspective what do you think of this?

Consider this question for the moment, what is of more value, having freewill or the majority of humanity going to hell?

If it is having free will, then it seems that the majority of humanity will be going to hell. So, why is freewill important?

But what if all of humanity did not have a choice and were robotic servants of God? Because there would be no such thing as sin, we (all of humanity) would spend eternity in heaven, right?

Is it not true that sin is a product of freewill?

So, what is of more value and why?

Would it be of more value that all of humanity, every man, woman and child throughout history and all cultures should go to heaven for eternity?

Or...

Would it be of more value that most of humanity would be going to hell to suffer forever?

It seems reasonable and obvious to suggest that it is of more value that all of humanity spends eternity in heaven rather then most of humanity going to hell and suffering for an eternity.

If it is suggested that God wanted us to "freely" love him, then one can ask; why is that the case? Does God need us to love him? I would think that many believers would say no. But if God does not need us to love him, then whether we love him freely or not should not matter to God, since he does not need our love to begin with.

If God does not need our love, then whether I have freewill or not should not matter to God.

So, either God needs us to love him freely, which would mean God has a need. Therefore God is not perfect. (The assumption being; perfect beings do not have needs.)

Or…

God does not need us to love him freely, but has chosen to allow most of humanity to go to hell, which again, would suggest a lack of moral perfection.

So, which is it?

anon

[mujahid263]

Either we were created with freewill or we were not.

We were.

If we were created with freewill, most of humanity will go to hell.

I disagree.

In either case one can ask, if we have freewill, what is the point of it?

Cuz the supreme being felt like givin it.

If God exists and if God, by definition, is good, then if God is not good he does not exist, by definition or he is not just and therefore not good and therefore not God. I think.

I don't get what you're saying here? Are you talking about how God's justice allegedly contradicts God's mercy? Or perhaps you are considering punishment a bad thing?

But he didn’t. So, then the question is, why not?

No, I think the question is more of a why? Why should God apply the idea of one of God's creations?

Does God need us to love him?

God doesn't need anything from us. But God wants us to love God.


Any of these views are my own as Muslim, and they aren't necessarily the same in each case with the others here. God knows best.

[The Happy Humanist]

God's. He created people with the capacity for sin, knowing they would use it. As the original post suggests, he could have created us all in heaven in the first place, making everyone happy - He gets his love and worship, we get heaven.

I put in italics the key phrase, "he could have...." Please note, a time-traveller could go back into history and prevent the invention of the time-machine that allowed them to travel into the past, but doing so would prevent them from having the time machine to go back into the past and stop the event!

"Could have's" should be re-worded into "wouldn't it be nice if a time-traveller could go back and stop the time machine from being invented and saved the world from all the trouble of people going into the past and screwing up the future...." If you said that, then I would agree, it would indeed be nice. Absurd, but "nice."

Uhhhhh....OK, ya lost me.

Are you (a) referencing your God-vs.-the-evil-paradoxes theory? Or (b) simply saying that God cannot go back in time and undo what he has done? I don't see how either of these militates against the proposition I presented in the quoted paragraph. Wouldn't it be a lot less troublesome to skip the "Great Experiment" and go right to the heaven part? What would be lost?

A little less obliqueness might be in order.

[harvey1]

"Could have's" should be re-worded into "wouldn't it be nice if a time-traveller could go back and stop the time machine from being invented and saved the world from all the trouble of people going into the past and screwing up the future...." If you said that, then I would agree, it would indeed be nice. Absurd, but "nice."

Uhhhhh....OK, ya lost me. Are you (a) referencing your God-vs.-the-evil-paradoxes theory? Or (b) simply saying that God cannot go back in time and undo what he has done? I don't see how either of these militates against the proposition I presented in the quoted paragraph. Wouldn't it be a lot less troublesome to skip the "Great Experiment" and go right to the heaven part? What would be lost? A little less obliqueness might be in order.

Of course it would be easier to skip a process, but that tells you nothing whether skipping a process meets the same criterion as not skipping it. The analogy with time travellers is just to point out that it's a lot easier to imagine a fix than it is to implement one. However, yes, a God-vs.-the-evil-paradox theory is just one explanation for evil. However, at the end of the day, we need to realize that Q is what we know not.

[The Happy Humanist]

Of course it would be easier to skip a process, but that tells you nothing whether skipping a process meets the same criterion as not skipping it.

You're right, it would tell me nothing. But hel-loooo, we're talking about His Almightiness here, remember? He would know in advance the outcome of the Great Experiment (I assume you concede his omniscience), and would thus be able to weigh it against the null. Not only would it require less effort on his part (I know, an absurdity for a being with infinite energy), but he would immediately see that skipping creation and going right to the part where we all spend eternity in bliss would have a much better net outcome. As an all-good being, i.e., one incapable of doing unnecessary evil, I submit he would be forced by his own nature to forego the whole creation shtick and just have us go directly to heaven, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

[harvey1]

[God] would know in advance the outcome of the Great Experiment (I assume you concede his omniscience), and would thus be able to weigh it against the null. Not only would it require less effort on his part (I know, an absurdity for a being with infinite energy), but he would immediately see that skipping creation and going right to the part where we all spend eternity in bliss would have a much better net outcome. As an all-good being, i.e., one incapable of doing unnecessary evil, I submit he would be forced by his own nature to forego the whole creation shtick and just have us go directly to heaven, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Assumptions, assumptions, and more assumptions. What if the process of eliminating evil is part of the reason that evil is eliminated? Let me give you an example. If someone told you the axioms of algebraic topology (let's assume you know almost nothing of algebraic topology), and they also told you the result of some advanced algebraic topological problem, does that mean that you have proved that those solutions are correct? What do you have to do to prove those solutions if all you are given is the axioms?

Well, first you have to construct all the needed theorems, etc., to algebraic topology that affect the problem and make a solution possible. Which means, of course, you have to learn it from scratch (again, assuming you don't already know it). Then you have to construct a proof of the solutions in a manner that is consistent with mathematical logic and the relevant theorems of algebraic topology. Finally, after you've grown older by some amount, you can walk over to the person who gave you those solutions and say, "I have proved the solutions you have given me based on those set of axioms, it wasn't easy, but I did it--I have conquered evil."

Now, no sooner that you have spoken those words comes along The Happy Bystander (THB). THB is confused as to why you needed to spend the last few years of your life learning algebraic topology, and is especially confused as to why there was a need to prove out the solutions that were already given to you. You actually, according to THB, should have been as happy as pie that solutions of some problem you don't understand was given to you, and simply lived the rest of eternity happy that you had results that you don't have any comprehension whatsoever whether they are true, or even if they are at all meaningful.

However, unbeknownst to THB, the solutions were only known to be real solutions once you proved them to be so. Had nobody ever made the attempt to prove theorems in algebraic topology, then there would be no theorems in algebraic topology, and something wonderful would never actually exist to enjoy for eternity in mathematical heaven.

------------------------------

Using this analogy, I want to extend it to the concept of perhaps why God does not let us pass Go and collect $200. One possibility is that unless it is proved to be so, it doesn't have a foundation. And if there is no foundation, then it isn't one of those things that you can point to and say: "this thing here is true." And, if you can't point to a thing and say that, then it just doesn't have a place in the furniture of the world.

[Logetic]

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. . ."

When two married people (man and woman) want to have a child, if all things are in place, it is an act of the expressing of love. They want to, and are, making a person after their own likeness and image. AND, know by the absolute experience and knowledge they possess (empirical), that the individual they create will have complete freedom to not follow the aspirations of its creators. Any sane person can agree to that. But there are consequences that empiricism also testifies to in absolute terms.

Interesting that even humans that do not have a well balanced relationship or a natural sexual orientation still have the "desire" for offspring and/or to raise young. It seems to be inherent in many, many humans, whether a conscious thought process or simple instinct (which of course would be strange for a person claiming a same-sex "orientation").

Freewill if you like, is just that. We know from experience that life can be and is terribly cruel, but almost all humans still want offspring knowing what will happen. We also know the incredible joy that is life itself. Very omniscient-like!

Not even the most dependent person wants to be smothered by another. Everyone, even toddlers, "want their freedom," even if they know (well, not the toddler), like any parent or adult out in the world that bad things can happen to those that deserve it to happen and to those who do not.

This lends to the idea that God has indeed left His blueprint on our nature. For even the most abused individuals want to "procreate." Not just have sex, they want to have children. The word "procreate" demands attention to the proof that God exists in easy to understand terms.

It seems that God was fair. In Jesus he laid aside his divinity. Even to the point of wanting another path for sacrifice. Human nature is tough even for God. But you cannot change fact. Only deny it. Jesus didn't and neither should we.

Free will. It's a gift that only the true Deity could ascribe to its "creatures."

[harvey1]

Free will. It's a gift that only the true Deity could ascribe to its "creatures."

Understandable, but what exactly is free will? Do we have free will to avoid God's judgement?

[The Happy Humanist]

Assumptions, assumptions, and more assumptions. What if the process of eliminating evil is part of the reason that evil is eliminated?

No universe = no evil = nothing to eliminate. Unless you wish to argue that there is evil in heaven?

However, unbeknownst to THB, the solutions were only known to be real solutions once you proved them to be so. Had nobody ever made the attempt to prove theorems in algebraic topology, then there would be no theorems in algebraic topology, and something wonderful would never actually exist to enjoy for eternity in mathematical heaven.

I submit that God would not need to prove himself. He could just make life good, and be done with it. Anything less, and you and I are simply not talking about the same deity.

Using this analogy, I want to extend it to the concept of perhaps why God does not let us pass Go and collect $200.

I further submit that the more "perhapses" you have to add to this already tortured construct, the less reasonable it becomes. "No God. Stuff happens." So easy. So simple. Don't worry. Be happy.

[bernee51]

When two married people (man and woman) want to have a child, if all things are in place, it is an act of the expressing of love.

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Some just want an heir - preferably male...thus the huge gender imbalance in countries like India and China.

Interesting that even humans that do not have a well balanced relationship or a natural sexual orientation still have the "desire" for offspring and/or to raise young. It seems to be inherent in many, many humans, whether a conscious thought process or simple instinct (which of course would be strange for a person claiming a same-sex "orientation").

There are many influences - ranging from the pressure of evolution to the need to nurture.

This lends to the idea that God has indeed left His blueprint on our nature.

I think you have it back to front...we have imposed on the god concept those aspects of humanity we wish we had in perfection but with which we struggle.

The word "procreate" demands attention to the proof that God exists in easy to understand terms.

How so?

It seems that God was fair. In Jesus he laid aside his divinity. Even to the point of wanting another path for sacrifice. Human nature is tough even for God.

How can anything be 'tough' for an omni everything deity?

Free will. It's a gift that only the true Deity could ascribe to its "creatures."

So those who don't follow the 'true' deity' have no free will?

[Tycho23]

I believe this topic all boils down to what you see our purpous in life is...

Lets suppose something...

God is up in heaven with his spirit children before the Earth was created. He presents a plan by which all his children can recieve a physical body and develop even further spiritualy. But in order for them to develop further, they need to prove their worth as a child of God. So, a testing ground is needed. An environment in which his children can be subjected to the perils of temptation and prove their worth by using the God given gift of free agency. However, this cannot be done in heaven.

God continues to say that in order for everyone to return to live in heaven after they are tested, justice and Mercy must be granted unto all. Justice is demanded since no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of God. If a child is blemmished with sin, then they cannot return to live with Heavenly Father (God). So Mercy is required to be bestowed upon all that sin and desire to return to heaven. Someone will need to take all the punishment and let it be bestowed upon himself and not the children of God if Justice and Mercy are to be both satisfied. This is the role that the savior plays in our lives.

However, another plan was put forth before God. This plan came from Lucifer, the morning star and the second born of God. He said, 'Why does there need to be a savior at all? Why can't we all just be forced to live the gospel perfectly down on Earth so that we all can come back to heaven with what we gained on Earth? No one need be punnished!'

This plan threw the heavens into an uproar. Lucifer, standing by his idea, had tried to destroy the God given Gift of Free Agency. So enticing was his plan, one third of the hosts of heaven used their free agency to side with Lucifer and try to destroy it. However, the rest of the hosts of heaven sided with God and the savior, so that they might keep their most precious gift and be tested.

Since Lucifer had tried to destroy God's gift of free agency, he and all his minnions were cast out of heaven. In his bitter anguish for being cast out from the home he had lived in forever, he swore never to let any of those that sided with God to return to his presence. He became Satan.

This was necesary... In order for his children to be tested, a world that was imperfect was needed. However, if God created anything imperfect, he would cease to be God. So, he created the Earth and on it the garden of Eden. There he placed Adam and Eve and commanded them to populate the earth. He then let Satan tempt Eve into eating the forbiden fruit. She did and sin and death were introduced to the world. Justice was demanded, and Eve was banished from the Garden, but Adam had been commanded to look after and care for Eve by God, so he partook of the fruit so that he could follow after her and help populate the Earth. All this provided Earth as a testing ground for all us to be tested on.


So in essance, free agency (free will) is the one thing that matters in this life. By using it wisely we can prove our worth to God, and through the savior's attonement be able to return to heaven.


By this plan, both Mercy and Justice would be granted unto all those that required it.

Free agency is our greatest gift....


At least, that's what I believe..... [/b]