Slavery

Malleus · Post by **Malleus** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:28 am

Hi there, Malleus here, long time reader, first time complainer. I am wondering, is the so called moral high ground that various religious groups seem to take warranted, having just read a section of the ten commandments, I came upon a passage thus:

(1) Then God spoke all these words: (2) I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; (3) you shall have no other gods before me. (4) You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (5) You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, (6) but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments. (7) You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name. (8) Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. (9) Six days you shall labor and do all your work. (10) But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. (11) For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it. (12) Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. (13) You shall not murder. (14) You shall not commit adultery. (15) You shall not steal. (16) You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (17) You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
Exodus 20:1-17

As you can see, it first talks of how god has removed the followers from the house of slavery, yet seems to make it clear in the bolded sections that it is fine and dandy to own slaves. Opinions???

Question: Is the Bible a piece of Hate literature proposing double standards and endorsing slavery?

Cmass · Post by **Cmass** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:48 am

Thank you, Cmass! You seem sincere, so I will reevaluate my statement and get back to you.

In this case I am very sincere. (Although you should be aware that I am also a smartypants which I'm sure Achilles attest to) I am very sincere when it comes to slavery or other topics where religions have been used extensively to justify abuse, killing, torture and environmental degradation on a grand scale.
Slavery is abuse. Discussions of master/slave relationships can only be about degree of abuse.

Until then, I apologize if I have crossed the line.

You certainly did not cross any of MY lines. I found it necessary to come to the aid of Achilles because: 1) I think his argument is weak enough without saying he is in favor of slavery and; 2) He is a good guy and I don't think he is in favor of slavery.
He does, however, hold very close a book he says is the word of God. This book does not make a strong case against slavery which has put him and other Christians in an awkward position of trying to make up excuses (apologies) as to why this is the case.

BTW Indignation: You are listed being in Bellevue. I can almost see you from the top of the hill above Cmas compound on Tiger Mountain:

Cmass · Post by **Cmass** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:33 am

You have a friend. (scary thought I know)

Uhmm. OK.

This friend is a slave in a society in which slavery is everywhere. 40% of the population is slaves in fact.

Sounds almost Biblical.

Now this friend is in the category that the majority of slaves were in during that time.

OK. We'll call him Mr. Middle Class Slave Man.

They were not being paid, but were given rooms and food. They were not being beaten but they were being worked.

Can we assume they would be beaten if they refused to work? This is the whole point. It is fun to joke about it, but it is ultimately rather sick and ignorant to seriously equate a slave's work experience with that of a common modern worker.

Their master has total and complete power over their lives, for good or bad. There is a history of slaves earning their freedom for good behavior or at the very least, well behaved servants are treated with respect and dignity. What would you advise them?

Would you
A) write them something along the lines of "Do your best and work well. Don't piss off your master because this will cause you trouble. I know you situation isn't the best but hang in there and things will get better."

or

B) I'm sorry your a slave. I know running away will make you a criminal and hunted but you should do it anyway. In fact you should cause your master so many problems he will be sorry he ever took you in.

or would you write something else?

This is a very creative setup but it is shallow. I would first have to know if my letter to him had any chance of being intercepted by other Christian slave owners. My advice to a person in a situation like this would be VERY carefully considered. I would need to know far more information about his state of mind, the geography around him, his physical stamina, his family connections, his slaveholder (for example, is he a Christian?), the local politics ect... My advice to him would be what I thought would be best for him specifically.
If you wanted me to send a mass message to slaves of that era then I would probably teach them the ways of science - including social science - and skepticism as a basis for revolution. I might also encourage them to come up with ways to undermine the system and do their best to take it apart from within. I would not encourage them to be good little slave boys and kiss the master's butt or Jesus' butt or anyone else's butt - unless that is truly what they wanted to do. Modern religion evolved as a mixing of superstition and ritual with a need to control people - not free them. There was no concerted, widely successful effort to wipe out slavery until after modern science came along.

achilles12604 · Post by **achilles12604** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:46 am

He does, however, hold very close a book he says is the word of God. This book does not make a strong case against slavery which has put him and other Christians in an awkward position of trying to make up excuses (apologies) as to why this is the case.

Well I sincerely thank you for your kind words. Let the games continue.

This section here contains ideas which keep coming up. The bible does not make a case against slavery. Yes I agree that the bible does not specifically say that slavery is wrong. HOWEVER . . .

Jumping from this to "The bible endorses slavery" is not a logical move. Not mentioning a stance on something is basically the opposite of endorsing it. The latter is an action while the other in inaction. How are they the same in the minds of now 3 non-theists?

The bible does not say that slavery is bad outright. It also does not say slavery is good. At most all it does is mention that slavery was occurring. This isn't much different than the account held in many history books. The books talk ABOUT slavery but I have not come across one that says "Oh and by the way kids . . . slavery is a bad thing." This idea is a given and it is not addressed.

Christians obviously understood this to be true. After all look at RI's source which mentions that Christians opposed slavery and especially those master who were cruel. Like the history book, they simply understood this fact.

So will someone explain to me how the bible is evil for mentioning slavery but not expressly saying it was evil, while textbooks do the same thing but there is no problem.

ALSO you have to factor in that while the bible does not outrightly condemn slavery, it does mention many places that actions opposed to slavery are good. . .

Matthew 19:19
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' "

Matthew 22:39
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

Romans 13:9
The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Galatians 5:14
The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

James 2:8
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.

OH AND BY THE WAY RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION. . .

You wrote:

Here’s some real wisdom: "All men are created equal", but you won’t find that in the Bible.

Pardon me . . .

Romans 3:9
[ No One is Righteous ] What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.

Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

Did you get this one . . . There is not difference between Jew and Gentile in God's eyes? Did you even read the bible before forming an opinion about it? You obviously missed this section too write what you did in post 77

Here are some more about equality in God's eyes.

Romans 2: 9-11
9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

Leviticus 19:15
" 'Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

Ephesians 6:9
And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

Acts 10:34
Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism

And finally . . .

Proverbs 22:2

2 Rich and poor have this in common:
The LORD is the Maker of them all.

Malachi 2:10

Judah Unfaithful
10 Have we not all one Father [a] ? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?

Now. Anyone have anything to add?

achilles12604 · Post by **achilles12604** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:52 am

They were not being paid, but were given rooms and food. They were not being beaten but they were being worked.
Can we assume they would be beaten if they refused to work? This is the whole point. It is fun to joke about it, but it is ultimately rather sick and ignorant to seriously equate a slave's work experience with that of a common modern worker.

DING DING DIND! We have a winner. Absolutly we can assume that they were being punished for not working! So now does Paul's advice make sense yet???

My reading of Paul's letters concerning slaves. . .

1) you are stuck.

2) Your situations happiness or misery depends on your master and their opinion of you.

Therefore . . .

3) work hard and don't cause trouble. By doing this you will promote yourself in their eyes and cause your life to be happier and ultimately you might be rewarded for good behavior.

Isn't this simple common sense? COMMON Am I really the only one who thinks Paul's advice is good common sense?

Cmass · Post by **Cmass** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:03 am

The bible does not say that slavery is bad outright. It also does not say slavery is good.

But it does say murder is bad doesn't it? It does say dozens of other things are bad or good and punishable doesn't it? Isn't it odd for a book that is supposed to be about morals, moral behavior etc... to be so quiet on this point? Unless........modern religion is ultimately used as a way to control the slaves and not set them free.

At most all it does is mention that slavery was occurring. This isn't much different than the account held in many history books. The books talk ABOUT slavery but I have not come across one that says "Oh and by the way kids . . . slavery is a bad thing." This idea is a given and it is not addressed.

Give me a break! You can do far better than this Achilles.
This would be fine if the Bible, it's authors and it's believers saw it as nothing more than a history book. But they (you) don't see it that way.

achilles12604 · Post by **achilles12604** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:04 am

If you wanted me to send a mass message to slaves of that era then I would probably teach them the ways of science - including social science - and skepticism as a basis for revolution. I might also encourage them to come up with ways to undermine the system and do their best to take it apart from within.

What has history shown every time this occured? Brutality increased. Murders skyrocketted.

Remember that even though the lives of slaves was not ideal, they were at least being fed and had a roof over their heads, not only for themselves but also for their families.

In america, we have a very strong tendency towards freedom, both personal and in general. Hence the thought of something controling us and our every move is hated and revolted against. Honestly I think this idea of freedom for everyone is a devine idea. Absolutly correct. Unfortunatly even today millions of people do not have the freedoms we have grown accustomed to. And what happens to those people who fight against the powers that control them?

We get Genocide, holocausts, Red Square incidents. Murder, destruction and upheaval.

There was a good movie out fairly recently. Anna and the King.

In this movie Anna gave Uncle Tom's cabin to the Kings son to read. The king hands back the book eventually asking her not to spread to many ideas to fast. He says "So and so has many things to learn. But one can not plow new fields in Siam overnight."

Paul was probably against slavery. We see the theme of equality throughout his letters. He was certainly against cruel treatment of slaves as seen in his letter to Philemon. So why is it such a stretch to view his words as common sense to avoid more pain and suffering in their daily lives?

Remember that many of the slaves of that time especially had sold themselves into slavery in order to pay off debts. Arn't his words wise for the time were discussing?

Cmass · Post by **Cmass** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:08 am

Quote:
Quote:
They were not being paid, but were given rooms and food. They were not being beaten but they were being worked.

Can we assume they would be beaten if they refused to work? This is the whole point. It is fun to joke about it, but it is ultimately rather sick and ignorant to seriously equate a slave's work experience with that of a common modern worker.

DING DING DIND! We have a winner. Absolutly we can assume that they were being punished for not working! So now does Paul's advice make sense yet???

My reading of Paul's letters concerning slaves. . .

1) you are stuck.

2) Your situations happiness or misery depends on your master and their opinion of you.

Therefore . . .

3) work hard and don't cause trouble. By doing this you will promote yourself in their eyes and cause your life to be happier and ultimately you might be rewarded for good behavior.

Isn't this simple common sense? COMMON Am I really the only one who thinks Paul's advice is good common sense?

I don't know.
But I do know that is flacid advice from an enabler that will not lead to any shift in thinking.

achilles12604 · Post by **achilles12604** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:08 am

Cmass wrote:
The bible does not say that slavery is bad outright. It also does not say slavery is good.
But it does say murder is bad doesn't it? It does say dozens of other things are bad or good and punishable doesn't it? Isn't it odd for a book that is supposed to be about morals, moral behavior etc... to be so quiet on this point? Unless........modern religion is ultimately used as a way to control the slaves and not set them free.
Yes I am sure that Paul wrote to the slaves to behave themselves in a grand conspiracy to keep the infrastructure of the Roman economy intact. This was certainly his intent. Now I see the logic.

He was an influencial person that the gentiles admired so the Roman Govt paid him off to write this so that they would have less trouble getting slave labor to be efficent. Whew. I am glad that is cleared up.

achilles12604 · Post by **achilles12604** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:11 am

At most all it does is mention that slavery was occurring. This isn't much different than the account held in many history books. The books talk ABOUT slavery but I have not come across one that says "Oh and by the way kids . . . slavery is a bad thing." This idea is a given and it is not addressed.
Give me a break! You can do far better than this Achilles.
This would be fine if the Bible, it's authors and it's believers saw it as nothing more than a history book. But they (you) don't see it that way.

Right. I also am missing the place where it endorses slavery. I did however find many places where it offers ideas opposed to slavery. Ideas of eqality among all men, Jew and Gentile, humanity being equal to God and of equal value to him.

Your right I could have done better. But I think I did so in my next post where I listed out many verses with anti-slavery ideas. Lets discuss those passages and then decide if the bible's view is pro or anti slavery.

unknownuser · Post by **unknownuser** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:29 pm

it seems like the christians don't want to accept what the aetheists see plainly. it's clear the bible, God, Jesus, Moses, etc... did not see anything morally wrong with slavery. that is a fairly new idea. this is the way the world functioned.

an example would be like homosexuality.

in biblical days a man could be married and have sex w/a young boy, a mentor had sex with his male pupil and it was just like having fish one day and beef the other. nowadays things are compatmentalized and defined in ways they weren't back then.

Jesus clearly spoke out against divorce. this was a wrong that need righting. Slavery wasn't. Think of the fact that the ruler of the land was whomever happened to be the heir of the king (we got that right now anyway, but...)

Also, a lot of the relationships in the Bible are in relation to man and God. in God's view man is a slave, either to sin/Satan or God. there's no in-between.

If we live another 1,000 yrs, maybe the idea of the state owning land and people working in offices, producing useless things to be sold in order to eat will be considered barbaric.

also, someone here keeps saying that the OT law doesn't apply to christians. Jesus says something like: i have not come to do away with, but to fulfill the law.

lastly, christians, the God of the Bible is the same God who destroyed Soddam and Gamohra (old men, women, new born infants) and will send the majority of His creation to a never ending hell.