Atheists Are Fools

[JoeyKnothead]

I see the Bible verse about 'the fool has said there is no god' bandied about by some of the forum members and it really does appall me. This kind of teaching is among the most insidious of all the Bible teachings, and it leads to the worst kind of beliefs. When a person holds this view, that those who disagree with you are evil, Satan, or fools, it really stops all attempts at understanding one another. To this atheist it is seen as a clear attempt to insult, and to slander. It prevents the theist from being able to accept new ideas, or ideas that clearly disprove a given biblical concept. It is no better than using the 'n' word, and no better than a child throwing a tantrum. When logic and reason can be short circuited by a simple phrase, then what is there left to debate?

What is even a bit sadder about the use of this term, its usually the ones holding the most foolish of ideas who dare claims someone else the fool. There is no shame in saying you think someone is wrong, and there should be no shame in being called wrong. But declaring an opponent in a debate forum a fool is the height of hypocrisy. What bigger fool could there be than one who would debate a fool?

The Christian religion uses these demonizing terms to stop debate. To stop honest discussion. To stop the honorable seeking of truth. Only a scared individual, or a scared ideology would use such tactics to defend itself. Only an ideology that knew it was questionable would dare try to stop someone's asking questions. A religion which has in itself a history of abuse, torture and murder of anyone who challenges it? And the atheist is the fool? What fool is there that would blindly adhere to something which he disagrees with?

I see often, in life and these forums, the Christian who will skirt around, under, or totally avoid discussion of the issue at hand. Many will resort to rhetorical trickery before they will discuss the issues, but they will call anyone who disagrees a witch. A fool. A demon. Who is so righteous they can make this declaration? Can we not agree that our differences are just that, differences, not demonic possessions? Why must someone who tries their best to understand this wonderful life we share always be a fool?

I'll tell you what a fool is. A fool is the person who has stopped learning. A fool is one who would declare they have the answers before they are even asked the question. They have stopped trying to understand people, and instead they want a chance to feel superior. How better to feel superior than to use the internet to call someone a fool. A faceless, otherwise anonymous debater, who comes in here to seek knowledge, and share their own. You would call them a fool? Have you never heard the expression, "You catch more flies with honey"? If you have, and you continue to call those you are debating with a fool, then really, what is there left to say to you?

What is it going to take the Christian religion to realize that differences of opinion can actually be a good thing? They can lead to new discoveries, to new ideas, and to better understanding. Even wrong opinions have value, because they allow us to discuss why they are wrong, how to correct them, and how to prevent them in the future. Why is it foolish to take the sum total of all available information and come to a conclusion based on that information? You are wrong about believing there is a God. But you're not a fool. You're not evil. You're just wrong. Surely we can get along long enough to debate why I am correct, or you are, without having to declare one another fools, or worse.

I will declare all who believe in a God wrong. But a fool? I have only been in these forums for a short time, but I will tell you this, there are some highly intelligent folks here, from atheist to theist, and I have learned from them. I learned from them because I know if I keep my mind open, I can learn. If I try to understand a person's point, even if I don't agree with it, I can learn about that person. And let me tell you, knowledge gained is good. It is good for the theist and the atheist alike. It is good because through understanding one another we can hopefully see that we are all wrong about something, we are all right about something, we are all bad for something, and we are all good for something. We are humans, each and every one of us, and we deserve a certain level of respect.

Atheists have families they love and care for. We have jobs we like, and jobs we hate. We have fears and dreams and wants and needs. We bleed red blood when we are cut. We have goals, and hopes, and we fail and we succeed. We do all of the things the religious do but one. Should the one single thing that separates us make us evil, or fools? Just because a book declares it? Just because one can hide behind a biblical passage, and deny a certain responsibility for declaring it? Are we really that bad that our lives are no better than a dog's? Really? Is there not some way we can be thought of as worthy of this life? Just because we don't believe a book? Just because we don't believe your book?

Ultimately I suppose I am here to 'preach atheism', but surely there can be a greater, more noble dialog.

[JoeyKnothead]

I will, and hold the following as well:

A retard has said in his heart: there is a God

[OnceConvinced]

The verse is a logical statement. "A fool has said in his heart: there is no God." It is logical, because logic when applied properly does not answer the question of whether there is or isn't a God. Science does not address "spirit." So, the logical hypothesis for many an atheist is: there is no God that meets my standard of what is logical. That is not saying "there is not any God" it just says they "do not find the realiy of God convincing." Whether i agree with that or not is of no consequence, but they have considered, usually, the information they have, interpreted it accordingly, and reach their conclusion. The "fool" part , and I tread water I suppose by trying to explain this and hope it is not misunderstood, is when someone just claims "There is no God!" and believes that settles the issue. I find very few people who actually ever do that, but when someone really does say "IN HIS HEART" there is no God, then the argument really does appear to be "foolish" in the sense that they reach conclusions that they may not have evidence for, but neither do they have evidence against. But instead they fill in the gaps with what is "in their heart." As a rule, no one needs to label a fool a fool. A fool will be self-evident in their approach and the way they argue. I hope that is clear and that if you have a question you will ask before assuming.

This is much more reasonable and shows a lot better understanding of the verse than those people who quote it as a blanket statement covering all unbelievers.

But even so, I think having it in your sig is definitely going to be taken the wrong way by most people (as it has with Joey). I know myself when I first saw it there, I thought it was meant as a blanket statement to all unbelievers, but your explanation here shows it not to be. Also, I don't believe I've ever seen you use it as an insult in debate like the occassional fanatic does.

Don't even try to prove it is based in logic. If you fail to see why it is not then there is no explanation that will show you exactly why it is not. Its a blanket statement of hatred for all who disagree with your interpretation of religion.

You wish that I would ask before assuming, but you, by your signature, assume all are fools who disagree with you. Give me a break.

I think you are being a little harsh on 2bits here. If his words above are to be believed (which I see no reason not to believe them), then he does not see the scripture as a blanket statement to all unbelievers. No doubt many will take it that way because it usually is used in that manner, but I don't think he personally intended it that way.

[JoeyKnothead]

I don't give a rip about twobits, its the language I find insulting.

Like many theists he is searching for a way to make it sound acceptable, and there should be no accepting of hate speech. Especially so when it took him so long to come up with that 'excuse'. There should be no excuse for hatred, and calling someone a fool is hate speech. Just because you can find somewhere in the Bible to support it does not change it.

I used the term 'the retard has said in his heart: there is God'.

How is that any different? I was admonished. Its not fair to allow theists the right to define which word is the insult. I feel using retard points to the absurdity of the statement, and how wrong it is. Of course its wrong, of course its hateful, but BOTH versions are hateful.

If anyone is allowed to use hate speech in these forums, then I reserve the right as well. So for those who would spread hatred, I will serve it back. If someone has the right to use 'their' language to insult me, then I should have the right to use MY language to insult them.

Hate is hate. You can dip it in butter or coat it in sugar, its still hate. Its still wrong. And I will speak up when I feel I am being insulted by anyone hiding behind the Bible, or any source of hatred for that matter.

So I say again

The retard has said in his heart: there is a God

[twobitsmedia]

I don't give a rip about twobits, its the language I find insulting.

Like many theists he is searching for a way to make it sound acceptable, and there should be no accepting of hate speech. Especially so when it took him so long to come up with that 'excuse'. There should be no excuse for hatred, and calling someone a fool is hate speech. Just because you can find somewhere in the Bible to support it does not change it.

I used the term 'the retard has said in his heart: there is God'.

How is that any different? I was admonished. Its not fair to allow theists the right to define which word is the insult. I feel using retard points to the absurdity of the statement, and how wrong it is. Of course its wrong, of course its hateful, but BOTH versions are hateful.

If anyone is allowed to use hate speech in these forums, then I reserve the right as well. So for those who would spread hatred, I will serve it back. If someone has the right to use 'their' language to insult me, then I should have the right to use MY language to insult them.

Hate is hate. You can dip it in butter or coat it in sugar, its still hate. Its still wrong. And I will speak up when I feel I am being insulted by anyone hiding behind the Bible, or any source of hatred for that matter.

So I say again

The retard has said in his heart: there is a God

I am not convinced that your preaching against "hate" in what appears to be a hateful way is really making any point.

[twobitsmedia]

But even so, I think having it in your sig is definitely going to be taken the wrong way by most people (as it has with Joey). I know myself when I first saw it there, I thought it was meant as a blanket statement to all unbelievers, but your explanation here shows it not to be. Also, I don't believe I've ever seen you use it as an insult in debate like the occassional fanatic does.

Thanks for your input. I will agree that it will (sometimes) be taken the wrong way. But that is why we are here debating. It is a scripture that is part of the "Christian doctrine."....Proverbs, for example, also has this one:

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

I dare say that those who embrace "knowledge" would be quick to jump on that as insulting.

[JoeyKnothead]

What you fail to understand is the demonizing of those who disagree with a religion is how that religion controls people, and suppresses debate. You are not in any way debating your signature. You are using your signature to declare all who disagree with you fools. You are hiding behind the Bible to try to insult people, and I will not stand for it. I have no problem should you wish to introduce the statement as a topic for debate, but you know it would be quickly dismissed, and proven wrong. Instead you hide your hateful language in your signature, and then feign ignorance as to why it would be considered an insult.

[Beto]

Some theists are quick at attempting to compare atheism to any "belief-based religion", but then rejoice at the inherent non-subjectiveness, and logic-based position, of the philosophy that doesn't allow for "personal interpretations" of otherwise masked insults.

[faith]

joeyknuccione"]I see the Bible verse about 'the fool has said there is no god' bandied about by some of the forum members and it really does appall me. This kind of teaching is among the most insidious of all the Bible teachings, and it leads to the worst kind of beliefs. When a person holds this view, that those who disagree with you are evil, Satan, or fools, it really stops all attempts at understanding one another. To this atheist it is seen as a clear attempt to insult, and to slander. It prevents the theist from being able to accept new ideas, or ideas that clearly disprove a given biblical concept. It is no better than using the 'n' word, and no better than a child throwing a tantrum. When logic and reason can be short circuited by a simple phrase, then what is there left to debate?

What is even a bit sadder about the use of this term, its usually the ones holding the most foolish of ideas who dare claims someone else the fool. There is no shame in saying you think someone is wrong, and there should be no shame in being called wrong. But declaring an opponent in a debate forum a fool is the height of hypocrisy. What bigger fool could there be than one who would debate a fool?

The Christian religion uses these demonizing terms to stop debate. To stop honest discussion. To stop the honorable seeking of truth. Only a scared individual, or a scared ideology would use such tactics to defend itself. Only an ideology that knew it was questionable would dare try to stop someone's asking questions. A religion which has in itself a history of abuse, torture and murder of anyone who challenges it? And the atheist is the fool? What fool is there that would blindly adhere to something which he disagrees with?

I see often, in life and these forums, the Christian who will skirt around, under, or totally avoid discussion of the issue at hand. Many will resort to rhetorical trickery before they will discuss the issues, but they will call anyone who disagrees a witch. A fool. A demon. Who is so righteous they can make this declaration? Can we not agree that our differences are just that, differences, not demonic possessions? Why must someone who tries their best to understand this wonderful life we share always be a fool?

Just look at what you wrote it is no different to what you accuse the Christians.Now in all truth if a christian understood what is meant by the term fool and the atheists when referring to the bible. Then it is not a fool as in 'idiot' but a fool as in they refuse to realise they chose between life and death if the word of God is true, It does not mean they lack understanding or uneducated.
If stood on a train track and you know a train is going to be travelling across the track in 20 minutes where you stood. But you ignored the information. The chances are something isn't right if your still stood there when it arrives/

I'll tell you what a fool is. 1,A fool is the person who has stopped learning. A fool is one who would declare they have the answers before they are even asked the question. 2.They have stopped trying to understand people, and instead they want a chance to feel superior. How better to feel superior than to use the internet to call someone a fool. A faceless, otherwise anonymous debater, who comes in here to seek knowledge, and share their own. You would call them a fool? Have you never heard the expression, "You catch more flies with honey"? If you have, and you continue to call those you are debating with a fool, then really, what is there left to say to you

1. To know the question and the answer before it is asked is a blooming miracle and no ones fool.
2. Well if they know the questions and answers before asked they already have all the questions and answers they are going to need. They are superior so do not need to call anyone a fool on the internet for this to be understood.
You also see more flies on Feocies than honey. You show you have bias too. Your post is telling people what is wrong with them.

What was necessary and all that was necessary to say is-
Believers and atheists should never let their emotions get involved with their posting. Please keep it pleasant and remember no one is judging you for your faith or lack of it. We can learn to understand each other whilst remaining different and being resepectful. I hope you see the funny side of what I have written.
Don't take it all so seriously. Relax and enjoy the posting. We are all foolish at times and say things we wish we hadn't. But that is about being human and accepting each other with our faults, warts and all. xx

What is it going to take the Christian religion to realize that differences of opinion can actually be a good thing? They can lead to new discoveries, to new ideas, and to better understanding. Even wrong opinions have value, because they allow us to discuss why they are wrong, how to correct them, and how to prevent them in the future. Why is it foolish to take the sum total of all available information and come to a conclusion based on that information? You are wrong about believing there is a God. But you're not a fool. You're not evil. You're just wrong. Surely we can get along long enough to debate why I am correct, or you are, without having to declare one another fools, or worse.

That will do it every time. Your WRONG and I AM RIGHT. Start a riot why don't you. Debate- to come to a decision of who is right and who is wrong. Not to convince each other we are right or wrong because we say so.
Remind me again why you wrote this!

I will declare all who believe in a God wrong. But a fool? I have only been in these forums for a short time, but I will tell you this, there are some highly intelligent folks here, from atheist to theist, and I have learned from them. I learned from them because I know if I keep my mind open, I can learn. If I try to understand a person's point, even if I don't agree with it, I can learn about that person. And let me tell you, knowledge gained is good. It is good for the theist and the atheist alike. It is good because through understanding one another we can hopefully see that we are all wrong about something, we are all right about something, we are all bad for something, and we are all good for something. We are humans, each and every one of us, and we deserve a certain level of respect.

You mean like the understanding in your last but one paragraph.

You are wrong about believing there is a God. But you're not a fool. You're not evil. You're just wrong.

This is still tickling me.
You mean we can all learn we are wrong because you say so and learn something good because it means your right because you say so. That figures.
We all deserve your level of respect that we are wrong and you are right. Thank you for that we will let you know our decision in a few hours, days, weeks, months or maybe years.

Atheists have families they love and care for. We have jobs we like, and jobs we hate. We have fears and dreams and wants and needs. We bleed red blood when we are cut. We have goals, and hopes, and we fail and we succeed. We do all of the things the religious do but one. Should the one single thing that separates us make us evil, or fools? Just because a book declares it? Just because one can hide behind a biblical passage, and deny a certain responsibility for declaring it? Are we really that bad that our lives are no better than a dog's? Really? Is there not some way we can be thought of as worthy of this life? Just because we don't believe a book? Just because we don't believe your book?

And you hide behind the book called Science and just because the believers don't believe your book they cannot believe you already did any of the above things. It's the way you tell them. Yeah you could remove your blinkers and prejudice view of believers and realise they never thought of any atheist as you have deemed them to do so, in your post.
Now doesn't that feel better.


Ultimately I suppose I am here to 'preach atheism', but surely there can be a greater, more noble dialog.

You mean like, I am right and your wrong.........
Thanks for the laugh....

Love Faith.xx

[JoeyKnothead]

Just look at what you wrote it is no different to what you accuse the Christians.Now in all truth if a christian understood what is meant by the term fool and the atheists when referring to the bible. Then it is not a fool as in 'idiot' but a fool as in they refuse to realise they chose between life and death if the word of God is true, It does not mean they lack understanding or uneducated.

Of course a Christian will not see the harm in calling someone a fool. They have been indoctrinated to believe all who disagree are fools. So you have no problem with it, as you have come to accept it.

I'm a fool because I choose between life and death?

Refuse to realize? Realize what? Realize I am indeed a fool because I don't accept religion?

Are you incapable of seeing the wrongness in that statement? You think because I'm an atheist I have 'chosen' death? Well I wanna live, so I guess chalk me up as a Christian? You dare tell me I have chosen between life and death? Now I'm a fool who has chosen death?

A Christian declares me a fool, and I must accept it because that Christian is trying to show me the light?

I do understand, I understand that when you call someone a fool, then you must be willing to accept you have, and quite skirting around the issue. Just because your God said it does not give you the right to say it to me.

Yes I do have bias, and when my bias is exposed, when my hateful comments are exposed I am censured for it. All I'm asking is for that train to come with a return ticket.

What was necessary and all that was necessary to say is-
Believers and atheists should never let their emotions get involved with their posting. Please keep it pleasant and remember no one is judging you for your faith or lack of it. We can learn to understand each other whilst remaining different and being resepectful. Very Happy I hope you see the funny side of what I have written.

Sure, I'm called a fool, but I must not let my emotions bother me. I must accept being called a fool, shut my mouth and carry on? Nope, ain't gonna do it. I have every right to react as anyone else. But you ask ME to keep it pleasant? "Shut up fool, keep it pleasant." Is this what you are asking me? No one is judging me for my 'lack' of faith? Then why must I be called a fool? Is that not a judgment? Of course not, because your book told you its the truth, and truth is not a judgment. Right?

Oh trust me, I see the funny side of what you're saying.

You are wrong about believing there is a God. But you're not a fool. You're not evil. You're just wrong. Surely we can get along long enough to debate why I am correct, or you are, without having to declare one another fools, or worse.

That will do it every time. Mr. Green Your WRONG and I AM RIGHT. Start a riot why don't you. Laughing Cool Debate- to come to a decision of who is right and who is wrong. Not to convince each other we are right or wrong because we say so.
Remind me again why you wrote this! Razz icon_confused2

I said you are wrong, in the terms of debate. I went further to explain why that is a correct debating position, but not then taking it further and calling you a fool. I said you are wrong, but not a fool.

Yeah you could remove your blinkers and prejudice view of believers and realise they never thought of any atheist as you have deemed them to do so, in your post.

Totally fair, call me out if I'm wrong, I have no problem with that. No problem. What I have a problem with is someone using a signature to spread a hateful message, undebatable, and requiring my acquiescence simply because its written in a book.

I fully accept if I have said something wrong/prejudice I must be called out on it. We should all feel compelled to point out the prejudices we hold. This is why I am so adamant about this issue. Its not about hurt feelings, or some Oprah moment, its about what is right. If one can disparage me, I should have that same right to disparage back.

I use the ridiculous notion of the 'retard' specifically to point out how wrong the idea is. Of course my rewriting of the statement is ludicrous, wrong, and hateful. It is so by design. It is not a sentiment I hold, but an example.

It comes back to mindsets. You see no problem with calling someone a fool, because in your interpretation it is either correct, or otherwise justified. In my mindset/interpretation it is a slander to all who do not believe in God.

And your flies to feces comparison was funny!

[twobitsmedia]

What you fail to understand is the demonizing of those who disagree with a religion is how that religion controls people, and suppresses debate. You are not in any way debating your signature. You are using your signature to declare all who disagree with you fools. You are hiding behind the Bible to try to insult people, and I will not stand for it. I have no problem should you wish to introduce the statement as a topic for debate, but you know it would be quickly dismissed, and proven wrong. Instead you hide your hateful language in your signature, and then feign ignorance as to why it would be considered an insult.

No, to be honest, I think you are demonizing them by interpreting the verse to mean what you think it says and then spreading it around that it means what you say it does.