Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

[John Human]

When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.

On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.

Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?

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[William]

[Replying to brunumb in post #480]

In her old age, my mother would sometimes call to me in the night asking me to do something about a little boy who was crying, or similar. There was never anyone making any such sound and in the middle of the night it was always particularly quiet.

You heard nothing, therefore your mother was delusional?

These aural hallucinations are associated with a form of dementia.

Which is associated with being real or imaginary, take your pick.

Thankfully she never developed it any further than that.

The stress you would have had to endure was avoided.

The brain is an amazing organ.

How amazing? Amazing enough to conjure up the physical universe as a real experience?

Did you watch the video linked?

[brunumb]

Did you watch the video linked?

No. I was just responding to the bit about hearing voices. When it occurred with my mother I did some investigation.

[William]

Did you watch the video linked?

No. I was just responding to the bit about hearing voices. When it occurred with my mother I did some investigation.

Investigation is good as it can help us gain knowledge that we might not currently be aware of - which is why the link was offered.

[Diagoras]

It could be that every single case of hallucinations is caused by demons, that every schizophrenic is oppressed or possessed by demons.

This is the weakness of science.

<bolding mine>

I don’t have the statistics to hand, but I’d venture that of all worldwide cases of hallucinations and schizophrenia, the proportion treated by drugs would be vastly greater than the proportion treated by exorcism. Then taking each treatment in turn, the success rate for drugs would likely be far in excess of that for exorcism.

Why would that be? Because science progresses past the ‘well, it could be because…’ stage, and performs experiments to test these hypotheses. Over many iterations, theories of drug efficacy develop.

The strength of science in this instance is in actually helping people recover from mental illnesses. The weakness of superstition on the other hand, is sadly all too obvious.

[William]

[Replying to Diagoras in post #484]

The drugs could act as a barrier so that the demon voices are no longer heard.

Therefore, the success of drugs is not indicative of the absence of demons voices being real.

More information which helps us understand so-called 'demons'...

[Diagoras]

[Replying to William in post #485]

Not just a barrier - what if the drugs are actually poisonous to demons?

What if demons are devout herbalists or homeopaths, and flee from any ‘drug-polluted’ body?

What if demons enjoy the free drugs so much that they now feel satisfied and so go off to enjoy some quality time on their own, doing jigsaws or embroidery, for instance?

All equally as plausible as the ‘demon-blocking’ explanation, of course. That’s because ”that which can be asserted without evidence can as easily be dismissed without evidence.”

[William]

[Replying to William in post #485]

Not just a barrier - what if the drugs are actually poisonous to demons?

What if demons are devout herbalists or homeopaths, and flee from any ‘drug-polluted’ body?

What if demons enjoy the free drugs so much that they now feel satisfied and so go off to enjoy some quality time on their own, doing jigsaws or embroidery, for instance?

All equally as plausible as the ‘demon-blocking’ explanation, of course. That’s because ”that which can be asserted without evidence can as easily be dismissed without evidence.”

Yes. Given the evidence in the two videos, the 'demons' are self-deprecating thoughts which folk say that they have, so effectively, those thoughts are dampened through permanently taking drugs [often with negative side effects] but can be dealt with in other ways.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Diagoras in post #484]

Even if it were the case that drugs have a higher rate of success, it doesn't matter much because the ones being freed by the church are those whom drugs could not help and doctors could not figure out what is wrong with them.

Why would exorcism help someone that science could not? And keep in mind, this includes psychology.

[Diagoras]

[Replying to Diagoras in post #484]

Even if it were the case that drugs have a higher rate of success, it doesn't matter much because the ones being freed by the church are those whom drugs could not help and doctors could not figure out what is wrong with them.

Why would exorcism help someone that science could not? And keep in mind, this includes psychology.

I work closely with a number of medical staff within mental health. The number of patients for which doctors can’t “figure out what is wrong with them” is vanishingly small. However, there are (unfortunately) a proportion for which drug treatment can only reduce symptoms, rather than fully cure them.

Statistically, exorcism success is down in the margins of error. And it does matter much that anyone suffering from a mental illness receives the kind of treatment that has the greatest chance of success. That’s NOT by attempting to evict some imagined supernatural being from them.

If you were able to walk through some of the inpatient facilities and clinics that I’m familiar with, and talk to the doctors involved, you might gain some appreciation of how common psychosis is, and its causes. You might even be dissuaded from them idea of ‘demons’ as one of those causes.

[William]

[Replying to Diagoras in post #489]

I work closely with a number of medical staff within mental health. The number of patients for which doctors can’t “figure out what is wrong with them” is vanishingly small. However, there are (unfortunately) a proportion for which drug treatment can only reduce symptoms, rather than fully cure them.

Please give an example which shows that patients are cured re mental health and medicine.

Statistically, exorcism success is down in the margins of error. And it does matter much that anyone suffering from a mental illness receives the kind of treatment that has the greatest chance of success. That’s NOT by attempting to evict some imagined supernatural being from them.

If you were able to walk through some of the inpatient facilities and clinics that I’m familiar with, and talk to the doctors involved, you might gain some appreciation of how common psychosis is, and its causes. You might even be dissuaded from them idea of ‘demons’ as one of those causes.

The idea of demons has to do with how ancient folk observed such, as I am confident you would agree.

In modern times, we can still understand that a voice in one's head which belittles them or is in some other manner derogatory and pushing the personality to self harm etc, is demonic as apposed to angelic.

Deeper understanding of psychology re Jung's Archetypes give us a platform to work from re understanding the scope of the problem for the purpose of affording us a means to actually work on actual cures.

Suppressing the nature of the beast with drugs, is not a 'cure' but simply a band aid - a typical response materialism invests in. A patch rather than a fix. A zombie rather than a personality.

Re: How To Bruise A Ghost - Jean Nouer from the sub-forum "Around The Camp Fire"

I would appreciate it if you would spend 10 mins reading that story...which was read and liked by our resident "hearer of the nasty voice if not for the medication" guy.