Scientific Justification for Free Will?

[Divine Insight]

Is there any scientific justification for the notion of Free Will?

Question #1. If you believe their is, can you please state your scientific evidence for the existence of Free Will.

Question #2. If you believe there is no scientific justification for the notion of Free Will, then please explain how we can have any scientific justification for holding anyone responsible for their actions. In fact, wouldn't the very notion of personal responsibility be scientifically unsupportable?

[instantc]

Why cannot a predictable choice be a free choice?

Donno, not my argument. Divine Insight asked why call it free if it is tied to the laws of physics. I would call it free simply because that's how I experienced it, but it's hard to say it is truely free if one can not just predict but induce it which brain probes.

I'm not so quick to say that we can know this. Consciousness is established by internal not external criteria, is it not? A computer is certainly not alive, but it could be conscious, just like a rock could be conscious, and we would never know.

Right you are. A computer merely does not appear to be conscious the way we are conscious.

Is your will free, or is that just an illusion? Your apparent choice is influenced by factors you are not aware of.

Let's take an example. There is a case of two identical twins who were separated at birth, and grew up on different continents. One in the U.S, the other in Australia. They found out about each other, and the one from Australia flew to here to meet sister for the very first time. She got off the plane, wearing the exact same dress as her sister wore to meet her. Their 'choices' were influenced by things beyond their control.

I don't think that anyone would claim our will to be completely free from outside influences. The question is whether 'outside' influences are determine the outcome of a decision, or whether the self has the final say in every decision. Or perhaps the right question to ask is whether our will is free from physical determinants. If everything that goes on in our mind is physical, then that kind of free will clearly cannot exist. Another kind of free will, which in my opinion is just as real as any other kind, is the freedom of will that exists as a matter of subjective experience, but not objectively. In other words, even if one could build an exhaustive map of the physical determinants that constitute a willed decision, I would still experience having freely made that decision, as opposed to situations where the physical determinants are known, and I do not experience a free decision.

[Goat]

Why cannot a predictable choice be a free choice?

Donno, not my argument. Divine Insight asked why call it free if it is tied to the laws of physics. I would call it free simply because that's how I experienced it, but it's hard to say it is truely free if one can not just predict but induce it which brain probes.

I'm not so quick to say that we can know this. Consciousness is established by internal not external criteria, is it not? A computer is certainly not alive, but it could be conscious, just like a rock could be conscious, and we would never know.

Right you are. A computer merely does not appear to be conscious the way we are conscious.

Is your will free, or is that just an illusion? Your apparent choice is influenced by factors you are not aware of.

Let's take an example. There is a case of two identical twins who were separated at birth, and grew up on different continents. One in the U.S, the other in Australia. They found out about each other, and the one from Australia flew to here to meet sister for the very first time. She got off the plane, wearing the exact same dress as her sister wore to meet her. Their 'choices' were influenced by things beyond their control.

I don't think that anyone would claim our will to be completely free from outside influences. The question is whether 'outside' influences are determine the outcome of a decision, or whether the self has the final say in every decision. Or perhaps the right question to ask is whether our will is free from physical determinants. If everything that goes on in our mind is physical, then that kind of free will clearly cannot exist. Another kind of free will, which in my opinion is just as real as any other kind, is the freedom of will that exists as a matter of subjective experience, but not objectively. In other words, even if one could build an exhaustive map of the physical determinants that constitute a willed decision, I would still experience having freely made that decision, as opposed to situations where the physical determinants are known, and I do not experience a free decision.

And, how can you tell, one way or another? Can you experience a 'free decision' at all? I don't see a technique to be able to determine if that is true, or false. Until such time as someone can point to a technique to rule out a predetermined nature of choices, or to confirm it, the concept of 'free will' is merely a metaphysical word game that really doesn't have a much to do with reality. I see it mainly used to explain why 'God allows evil', and in the story line, excuse God from being responsible for evil. And, since there seems to be a few dozen varieties of the concept, none of which are testable, I don't see the words "Free WIll" to have semantic meaning.

[instantc]

Why cannot a predictable choice be a free choice?

Donno, not my argument. Divine Insight asked why call it free if it is tied to the laws of physics. I would call it free simply because that's how I experienced it, but it's hard to say it is truely free if one can not just predict but induce it which brain probes.

I'm not so quick to say that we can know this. Consciousness is established by internal not external criteria, is it not? A computer is certainly not alive, but it could be conscious, just like a rock could be conscious, and we would never know.

Right you are. A computer merely does not appear to be conscious the way we are conscious.

Is your will free, or is that just an illusion? Your apparent choice is influenced by factors you are not aware of.

Let's take an example. There is a case of two identical twins who were separated at birth, and grew up on different continents. One in the U.S, the other in Australia. They found out about each other, and the one from Australia flew to here to meet sister for the very first time. She got off the plane, wearing the exact same dress as her sister wore to meet her. Their 'choices' were influenced by things beyond their control.

I don't think that anyone would claim our will to be completely free from outside influences. The question is whether 'outside' influences are determine the outcome of a decision, or whether the self has the final say in every decision. Or perhaps the right question to ask is whether our will is free from physical determinants. If everything that goes on in our mind is physical, then that kind of free will clearly cannot exist. Another kind of free will, which in my opinion is just as real as any other kind, is the freedom of will that exists as a matter of subjective experience, but not objectively. In other words, even if one could build an exhaustive map of the physical determinants that constitute a willed decision, I would still experience having freely made that decision, as opposed to situations where the physical determinants are known, and I do not experience a free decision.

And, how can you tell, one way or another? Can you experience a 'free decision' at all? I don't see a technique to be able to determine if that is true, or false.

The fact that I experience free will is something that I can verify first hand, there's simply no denying that. To what extent that corresponds to objectively observable reality is a different question.

... the concept of 'free will' is merely a metaphysical word game that really doesn't have a much to do with reality.

Except as a matter of subjective experience, which makes it as relevant to me as free will could possibly be, given the fact that there is a clear contrast to things that I do while not experiencing free will.

I see it mainly used to explain why 'God allows evil', and in the story line, excuse God from being responsible for evil. And, since there seems to be a few dozen varieties of the concept, none of which are testable, I don't see the words "Free WIll" to have semantic meaning.

I, too, dislike the use of free will in this context. However, I think that there is a way for the theist to raise this objection whether or not free will exists. The theist could say that God respects people's ability to make choices that are independent of God's external influence, for example. Not quite as fancy but does the job nevertheless.

[Bust Nak]

Is your will free, or is that just an illusion? Your apparent choice is influenced by factors you are not aware of.

Let's take an example. There is a case of two identical twins who were separated at birth, and grew up on different continents. One in the U.S, the other in Australia. They found out about each other, and the one from Australia flew to here to meet sister for the very first time. She got off the plane, wearing the exact same dress as her sister wore to meet her. Their 'choices' were influneced by things beyond their control.

It would only be an illusion had I been under the impression that there is some sort self independent of my material body; that my choice is not influenced by factors one is not aware of. If anything that's all the more reason to learn more about how those factors play out.

Leaning about the nature (deterministic or otherwise) of freewill does not make it an illusion anymore than leaning about the electrochemical nature of love mades love an illusion.

Freewill would be an illusion for me if and only if it turns out that there IS some sort of soul - i.e. where what I think I am experiencing, turns out to be a falsehood.