Scientific Justification for Free Will?

[Divine Insight]

Is there any scientific justification for the notion of Free Will?

Question #1. If you believe their is, can you please state your scientific evidence for the existence of Free Will.

Question #2. If you believe there is no scientific justification for the notion of Free Will, then please explain how we can have any scientific justification for holding anyone responsible for their actions. In fact, wouldn't the very notion of personal responsibility be scientifically unsupportable?

[arian]

Free will is not something to be "justified". It is simply how the subject relates to the world. Conversely, determinism is how the object relates to the world.

Whether you have free will or not depends on whether you are considering your "self" as an object or subject.

Science, for it's part, views all things as objects rather than subjects, so the idea of "scientifically justified free-will" is impossible in principle.

So free will exists, such as it is, but it is not the business of science to prove or disprove.

Are you saying then that 'gravity' doesn't exist?

No. Gravity exists such as it is. It's a pattern of behavior observed to be universal to all matter. The fact that it's observed is why it is in the realm of science.

Hmm.. let me see if I understand this right? You say; The fact that gravity is observed is why it is in the realm of science, because Gravity exists such as it is.

Yes, it does sound very sci-fientific.

Free will is different; it cannot be observed, only experienced.

Why don't you tell this to detectives that follow suspects around for days? According to you, now there is a total waste of time and tax dollars, right?

[Peter]

[Replying to post 386 by arian]

You believe you have a soul (autonomous mind) because that's what you want to believe. Without the concept of free will god is to blame for creating evil and not free will choices of humans. You are, apparently, incapable of considering anything that puts the existence of a god or it's perfection in question. Before you accuse others of being religiously indoctrinated you should take a careful look at yourself.

Nothing is intrinsically evil. Evil is like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder. Some things, like the Grand Canyon at sunset, we can all agree are beautiful. Other things, like extreme close up photos of insects, only a few people think are beautiful. So it is with evil.

Finally,I have no interest in defending Sam Harris from your unique interpretation of his writings.

[help3434]

I have presented and shown Undeniable Scientific Evidence of Creator God.

No you haven't. All you have done is claim you have this evidence, you haven't actually shown it at all.

[arian]

[Replying to post 386 by arian]

You believe you have a soul (autonomous mind) because that's what you want to believe. Without the concept of free will god is to blame for creating evil and not free will choices of humans. You are, apparently, incapable of considering anything that puts the existence of a god or it's perfection in question.

Thank you Peter. Again, I don't know how to explain this without attaching 'religious indoctrination' into it since we are all indoctrinated one way or another, and religion is something you do religiously; like playing tennis, or visiting the widows and the orphans. That is OK, but creating concepts of god/gods through religions is not good. Then creating what those god/gods interpret for everyone to follow is not good either, that is indoctrination of the bad-kind.

And yes, God DID create evil, and perfection includes evil otherwise there wouldn't be justice.

I believe in 'God the Creator', not one of the religiously created god/gods, so my defense is of the Absolute, not of the obsolete.

Before you accuse others of being religiously indoctrinated you should take a careful look at yourself.

Yes my friend and I do look at myself and I find myself far, far from being perfect and it is because of indoctrinations.

Nothing is intrinsically evil. Evil is like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder. Some things, like the Grand Canyon at sunset, we can all agree are beautiful. Other things, like extreme close up photos of insects, only a few people think are beautiful. So it is with evil.

Evil is an intrinsic part of justice; 'God does evil things to the wicked.'

We were talking about 'free will', not evil. When we have a religiously interpreted sense of justice, or a perverted sense of justice, what we think of as being just, could be evil.
"Hitler who was Jewish himself thought it justice to wipe all Jews off the face of the earth", this is a perverted, religiously indoctrinated view of 'justice'.

Finally, I have no interest in defending Sam Harris from your unique interpretation of his writings.

I think that is a good idea, you shouldn't defend his writings. It would be like defending FGM, or Agenda 21, or the thousands of other perverted agendas created by religions to 'SOLVE' human social, economical or ecological problems. Sam Harris writings is one of the 'problems' as I have pointed out in my previous post. But hey, you have free will, you can either accept Sam Harris solutions where evil is 'not really' evil, or you could crack the Bible open and follow Jesus teachings on how to deal with problems from an 'absolute' POV.

But oh wait, .. Sam Harris took away your 'free will' so you really don't have a choice, right? That is; you 'believe' you don't really have free will, that there is no such thing as free will, .. so "Do as Thou Wilt", .. right?

[Peter]

[Replying to post 386 by arian]

You believe you have a soul (autonomous mind) because that's what you want to believe. Without the concept of free will god is to blame for creating evil and not free will choices of humans. You are, apparently, incapable of considering anything that puts the existence of a god or it's perfection in question.

Thank you Peter. Again, I don't know how to explain this without attaching 'religious indoctrination' into it since we are all indoctrinated one way or another, and religion is something you do religiously; like playing tennis, or visiting the widows and the orphans. That is OK, but creating concepts of god/gods through religions is not good. Then creating what those god/gods interpret for everyone to follow is not good either, that is indoctrination of the bad-kind.

Playing tennis is a religious practice? I agree that something can be done religiously but please don't confuse routine with religion.

I believe in 'God the Creator', not one of the religiously created god/gods, so my defense is of the Absolute, not of the obsolete.

Ah, that's right, you're a deist. If you want to believe in a god that's a very sensible position to take.

Finally, I have no interest in defending Sam Harris from your unique interpretation of his writings.

I think that is a good idea, you shouldn't defend his writings. It would be like defending FGM, or Agenda 21, or the thousands of other perverted agendas created by religions to 'SOLVE' human social, economical or ecological problems. Sam Harris writings is one of the 'problems' as I have pointed out in my previous post. But hey, you have free will, you can either accept Sam Harris solutions where evil is 'not really' evil, or you could crack the Bible open and follow Jesus teachings on how to deal with problems from an 'absolute' POV.

Wait, are you now advocating the Christian god and his bible? I thought you were a deist. I'm unaware of any Sam Harris "solutions" unless you mean his advocacy for reason and reasonableness in this world.

But oh wait, .. Sam Harris took away your 'free will' so you really don't have a choice, right? That is; you 'believe' you don't really have free will, that there is no such thing as free will, .. so "Do as Thou Wilt", .. right?

We have choices and we make choices. I thought I was clear on that but apparently not. Sunflowers "choose" to face the sun. Do they have free will?

Next you conflate not having free will with "do as thou wilt". Huh? Where did that come from?

Please try to focus on one idea at a time. I don't do the Gish Gallop.

[higgy1911]

The solution to religious indoctrination whether it comes in the form of scientific education or Sunday school is an open mind, skillful critical thinking, and a healthy dose of skepticism regarding any claims made by anyone that can't be verified personally.

As far as free will goes, it doesn't matter much whether it is real or an illusion. Without knowledge of the future making a free will choice is functionally identical to making a predetermined choice. It doesn't change anything for people if free will is true or if it is an illusion. Because the effect of the illusion of free will is the exact same thing as actually having free will. At least as far as can be determined at this point given what we know, and even given the various possibilities we entertain, about the mind.

[Peter]

As far as free will goes, it doesn't matter much whether it is real or an illusion. Without knowledge of the future making a free will choice is functionally identical to making a predetermined choice. It doesn't change anything for people if free will is true or if it is an illusion.

I agree.

Because the effect of the illusion of free will is the exact same thing as actually having free will. At least as far as can be determined at this point given what we know, and even given the various possibilities we entertain, about the mind.

Unless Hell (eternal punishment) really exists. A god cannot justly punish you for choices that you couldn't control because of how you were made (by said god). Eternal punishment can only be just for willful choices against god. For anything in Christianity to make sense we must have free will.

[FarWanderer]

Free will is not something to be "justified". It is simply how the subject relates to the world. Conversely, determinism is how the object relates to the world.

Whether you have free will or not depends on whether you are considering your "self" as an object or subject.

Science, for it's part, views all things as objects rather than subjects, so the idea of "scientifically justified free-will" is impossible in principle.

So free will exists, such as it is, but it is not the business of science to prove or disprove.

Are you saying then that 'gravity' doesn't exist?

No. Gravity exists such as it is. It's a pattern of behavior observed to be universal to all matter. The fact that it's observed is why it is in the realm of science.

Hmm.. let me see if I understand this right?

You don't.

You say; The fact that gravity is observed is why it is in the realm of science, because Gravity exists such as it is.

Yes, it does sound very sci-fientific.

I did not say that. There was no "because" intended there. They are two seperate ideas not connected by any kind of "because".

To clarify: by "gravity exists such as it is" I mean it exists in one sense but not in another, i.e. gravity doesn't exist in the same way as, say, the pens on my desk do.

Free will is different; it cannot be observed, only experienced.

Why don't you tell this to detectives that follow suspects around for days? According to you, now there is a total waste of time and tax dollars, right?

Free will has nothing to do with that. Detectives don't observe free will. They observe behaviors and make predictions based off of patterns, much like scientists do.

[arian]

[Replying to post 386 by arian]

You believe you have a soul (autonomous mind) because that's what you want to believe. Without the concept of free will god is to blame for creating evil and not free will choices of humans. You are, apparently, incapable of considering anything that puts the existence of a god or it's perfection in question.

Thank you Peter. Again, I don't know how to explain this without attaching 'religious indoctrination' into it since we are all indoctrinated one way or another, and religion is something you do religiously; like playing tennis, or visiting the widows and the orphans. That is OK, but creating concepts of god/gods through religions is not good. Then creating what those god/gods interpret for everyone to follow is not good either, that is indoctrination of the bad-kind.

Playing tennis is a religious practice? I agree that something can be done religiously but please don't confuse routine with religion.

Have you ever observed 'religious' Catholics or Muslims and them Pharisees of old? That's right, they roll those prayer beads in their hands almost all the time. Prayer is a routine, repetition for them, this is where the word religion was eventually tagged to god/gods and the worship of gods.
One of the dictionaries actually use playing tennis religiously.

I believe in 'God the Creator', not one of the religiously created god/gods, so my defense is of the Absolute, not of the obsolete.

Ah, that's right, you're a deist. If you want to believe in a god that's a very sensible position to take.

A deist? Sorry but I don't follow ideas like the Big bang theory created by the religious creators and worshipers of god/gods.

Finally, I have no interest in defending Sam Harris from your unique interpretation of his writings.

I think that is a good idea, you shouldn't defend his writings. It would be like defending FGM, or Agenda 21, or the thousands of other perverted agendas created by religions to 'SOLVE' human social, economical or ecological problems. Sam Harris writings is one of the 'problems' as I have pointed out in my previous post. But hey, you have free will, you can either accept Sam Harris solutions where evil is 'not really' evil, or you could crack the Bible open and follow Jesus teachings on how to deal with problems from an 'absolute' POV.

Wait, are you now advocating the Christian god and his bible? I thought you were a deist. I'm unaware of any Sam Harris "solutions" unless you mean his advocacy for reason and reasonableness in this world.

Advocacy for reason and reasonableness? You heard the term: "He walks with his head in the clouds" no? Many have followed in the footsteps of these 'enlightened' gurus, monks, priests and priestesses only to be greatly disappointed, or even loose their lives to these self-elevated ones. Just saying, be careful. I know what I'm talking about from experience.

But oh wait, .. Sam Harris took away your 'free will' so you really don't have a choice, right? That is; you 'believe' you don't really have free will, that there is no such thing as free will, .. so "Do as Thou Wilt", .. right?

We have choices and we make choices. I thought I was clear on that but apparently not. Sunflowers "choose" to face the sun. Do they have free will?

No, they were designed to follow the sun till they get sick or die, dry up.

Next you conflate not having free will with "do as thou wilt". Huh? Where did that come from?

Please try to focus on one idea at a time. I don't do the Gish Gallop.

I believe it is you that conflate free will with design. A train follows a track, if the track curves, the train follows. This is not free will. The sunflower follows the sun the same way.

Now imagine a train track with all possibilities (what we erroneously call infinite possibilities) leading every possible direction. The train just sits there until you command it to move.
Chance is where that train could go next, and there are a lot of factors. If the wind was blowing the train left, the possibilities are that it will take one of the many tracks leading left. This is chance, not free will.

Now choice is free will because even if the wind was blowing the train towards the innumerable left tracks, the train could still 'choose' to go right.

The difference between us created, and God our Creator is that He can create the infinite possibilities, while we created can only 'choose' from those infinite possibilities.

He created the world and the universe, then us man and said; "fill it, enjoy and have fun. Any questions, please contact me with your mind/spirit and I'll help you out, or at least direct you in the right direction. If you see a planet out there but cannot fly, use your mind, and create something that will get you there. I'm not going do everything for you son, you'll have to get up and do it, I have given you a piece of myself, your mind, so create, explore, but best of all, enjoy!"

[Peter]

The sunflower follows the sun the same way.

The sunflower follows the sun because it was designed that way. How do you know that the choices you make are not simply because you were designed that way too?

That's the crux of the problem here. How do you know that any decision you make isn't simply because you were designed to make that decision? You can't possibly know without some kind of external oversight on the entire decision making process. That's why I repeatedly say that true free will is only possible if we have an autonomous spirit or soul that can countermand our choices. Essentially, true free will is the ability to make a choice we wouldn't make on our own.

I guess it comes back around to whether you think you have a soul or not.