Scientific Justification for Free Will?

[Divine Insight]

Is there any scientific justification for the notion of Free Will?

Question #1. If you believe their is, can you please state your scientific evidence for the existence of Free Will.

Question #2. If you believe there is no scientific justification for the notion of Free Will, then please explain how we can have any scientific justification for holding anyone responsible for their actions. In fact, wouldn't the very notion of personal responsibility be scientifically unsupportable?

[arian]

[Replying to post 1 by Divine Insight]

My perspective (twist) on question #1 is if god existed there could be no free will. At least if god is really all knowing, all seeing, is active in our lives, etc. and created man then free will is an illusion because god has already ordained what we will do/think... IMHO

That's the argument theists often use.

As you may know, I'm not a theist, so I don't represent any man-made god or gods through religious beliefs and practices. But as I see the struggle throughout our debates here to NOT understand God our Creator, what I can give you is the Painful Truth, that is an observable and philosophical revelation of our Creator God "I Am".

Now I know what I say will be either ignored because of the obvious scientific description of God our Creator, or will be greatly clouded because of your religious beliefs. First let me address RonE's comment: #1 is if god existed there could be no free will. At least if god is really all knowing, all seeing, is active in our lives, etc. and created man then free will is an illusion because god has already ordained what we will do/think

This would be true if God created man from the dust of the earth, and that's IT. Man walking around with a preprogrammed brain as atheists/theists suppose. Then Just Like the computer operated robots we create with AI, we would know what that robot will do under any situation because we programmed it. But man is NOT only the physical, and there is no predictable built in program in a baby that teaches itself to learn, even though this is what the Big-bang Evolution religion wants to make man believe.

Look at the Blue Brain Project by IBM, DID they put a simple (baby-like) DOS program to learn into a computer and watch it evolve to the intelligence that their "human brain simulation" is right now?

Of course not. It has taken decades, billions of dollars, countless man hours and contributions from scientist/programmers throughout the world, and they admit it is "far from being complete".

If God exists and is omnipotent, then It would have the power to put us beyond it's influence where we can make our moral choices without any knowledge that It exists. By definition, putting us beyond It's influence means that not even It would know what we will do--beyond probabilities.

It is obvious your are speaking either out of ignorance, religious blindness, or absolute hate towards our Creator.

Back at you: "Now I know what I say will be either ignored because of the obvious scientific description of God our Creator, or will be greatly clouded because of your religious beliefs."

1. Ignorance because you refer to our Creator "I Am" as an "it", so you must have never gone to church, or hear a sermon on TV, or had a Jehovah Witness, or a Mormon visit your home, or read even a chapter from the Bible, Koran or the Book of Mormon because if you were introduced to even one of these, you would not refer to our Creator as an "it". Every Christian, and non-Christian religion refers to God as a He, not an "it".

And every revealed religion has manufactured their own god and anthropomorphized it. That's one of the reasons I rejected the Christian religion I was raised under.

Same here, for similar reasons. I have found God outside of religion and its indoctrinations, and He is not an IT, you should know that if you read the Bible. Unless you believe you are an 'it' also, after all, you were created in your Creators image.

2. Religious blindness. Where your Big-bang Evolution religion through its many science-distorted Journals, books has blinded your view of even a possibility of a Creator because of the obvious reasons; Big Bang Evolution is not about Creation.

Wrong again. Because of the Big Bang, I believe the chance that God did it as opposed to their being no God is equal. The odds being equal, I lean towards God based on hope.

I suggest you look for evidence, both in the BB Evolution, and God your Creator.
I hope my old greedy multi-millionaire boss friend would come by one day and give me a hundred dollars, but 40 years of evidence is contrary to that hope.

3. Hate. Because of your self-righteousness and pride, you deny and debase your Creator in His face by referring to Him as an 'it'.

I'm merely stating that I don't know if It exists or not, but if It does, it's more likely to not have a gender. As for self-righteousness and arrogance, look in the mirror.

There are a lot of 'it' gods, I personally seen people worship hundreds of them over my lifetime. So you must not be looking very hard. As for a gender, again, .. you were created in His image, unless you are one of those genderless evolutionists?

Telling the truth is not arrogance, nor do I do it out of arrogance. There is a great cost in telling the truth my friend, but if you were of the Constantine invented Christian religions, .. I understand why you would never have known that. The world loves its own, especially obvious here in this country and in the Catholic countries.

You start with "If God exists, .." can you at least give us a hint as to how you imagine this non-human quality "it" so we Believers could understand a little more about your god version "it"? Have you seen or read of a god-like machine, or rock, or a wood statue 'create' any biological beings? I just want to know where you get the "it" from?

All I know is that we live in a perfectly all natural, rational universe about which we have no idea how it came to be. You say God and it may be. The atheists say no-God and that may be. There is no rational evidence either way, only 3000+ year-old hearsay.

Is it 'natural' for cars to cause traffic jams in the mornings M-F? Is it rational? The metal in the cars were created by God, and so were the humans, .. from the dust, .. all natural, no artificial additives. Well until now that is, the race is on to create a New semi-artificial human. They are amputating extremities for practically any minor reason, even a sliver in the finger of big, strong young and healthy Carpenters. Anything unnatural on this earth is the human ideas.

I explained the difference between believing in God from evidence, and believing/not believing in gods, .. or one god from them gods through religious hearsay.
Like I said, most likely you won't listen to what I tell you.

If you must, think of it as God using It's omnipotent power to limit It's power, reserving the power to revert to full omnipotence, which would then require that we loose our free will, limiting God again since It couldn't create beings with free will and full omnipotence. This is why free will is a gift, and why it's the only reason for Creation. What else could not be done instantly, instead of putting 13 billion years between us?

I have traveled the world, I have studied many religions and their versions of God, I have read many science and non-science sci-fi books, watched movies, but I have NEVER once heard or read God being referred to as an "it" who could create beings through its powers? So if I may, I will label the above remark as being made out of sheer ignorance.

YetyYou give It a gender based on mythology.

Again, you are thinking of the wrong God. You will never find God our Creator through, or in religious mythologies and sci-fi stories. But people do tend to believe in religiously created sci-fi mythological gods, just look up "Heavens Gate" cult. I don't create gods in my image.

Now if you have a different version of God and Free Will, at least tell us the source you got it from. Talk is cheap, .. prove your point like I do mine. Show me the source you got this "it" god from that can create, yet is not very good at it where even its creation is confused of "it"?

Thanks

Reason, not revelation, has led me to understand that if there is a God and It created the universe, It did so for the sole purpose of spawning sentient creatures with free will by which we automatically understand absolute morality. An omnipotent God could do anything else besides create this 13 billion year insulating test stage for us, instantly.

If you only looked closer at who you really are, how you were created, for what purpose, you would realize the incredible potential, the endless possibilities all good if we just used our 'free will' to stay with the 'PLAN' God has for us. We humans created the 'test-stage', not God. 13 billion years?? What, .,. do you think God evolved us into this 'test stage' or something? See what you get from religion, all kinds of confusion. Then you jump from one religion (Christian) into another, Big Bang Evolution. What is your 'reason' for this my friend?

I am many decades into my life, with religion as my avocation all the time. But it was only in the last year that I started referring to God as It. Not an It, btw, the It, thus the capitalization. I wish there were a more accurate word but there isn't.

I know what you mean, may I suggest;
Use your free will and get out of religion, get rid of the ideas of all them religiously created ideas of gods, and start searching for the truth. If you lost your hope and your ability to distinguish truth from lies, I can help you, be more than willing to help you. The gods you are referring to as 'It' are exactly that; it, not real. So I guess you are on your way, just don't give up. Now the next step is for you to become an atheist, realize that the gods you were taught in theology are not real.. just don't make atheism your new religion like millions have already done.

Take care my friend.

[ThePainefulTruth]

[Replying to post 1 by Divine Insight]

My perspective (twist) on question #1 is if god existed there could be no free will. At least if god is really all knowing, all seeing, is active in our lives, etc. and created man then free will is an illusion because god has already ordained what we will do/think... IMHO

That's the argument theists often use.

As you may know, I'm not a theist, so I don't represent any man-made god or gods through religious beliefs and practices. But as I see the struggle throughout our debates here to NOT understand God our Creator, what I can give you is the Painful Truth, that is an observable and philosophical revelation of our Creator God "I Am".

Now I know what I say will be either ignored because of the obvious scientific description of God our Creator, or will be greatly clouded because of your religious beliefs. First let me address RonE's comment: #1 is if god existed there could be no free will. At least if god is really all knowing, all seeing, is active in our lives, etc. and created man then free will is an illusion because god has already ordained what we will do/think

This would be true if God created man from the dust of the earth, and that's IT. Man walking around with a preprogrammed brain as atheists/theists suppose. Then Just Like the computer operated robots we create with AI, we would know what that robot will do under any situation because we programmed it. But man is NOT only the physical, and there is no predictable built in program in a baby that teaches itself to learn, even though this is what the Big-bang Evolution religion wants to make man believe.

Look at the Blue Brain Project by IBM, DID they put a simple (baby-like) DOS program to learn into a computer and watch it evolve to the intelligence that their "human brain simulation" is right now?

Of course not. It has taken decades, billions of dollars, countless man hours and contributions from scientist/programmers throughout the world, and they admit it is "far from being complete".

If God exists and is omnipotent, then It would have the power to put us beyond it's influence where we can make our moral choices without any knowledge that It exists. By definition, putting us beyond It's influence means that not even It would know what we will do--beyond probabilities.

It is obvious your are speaking either out of ignorance, religious blindness, or absolute hate towards our Creator.

Back at you: "Now I know what I say will be either ignored because of the obvious scientific description of God our Creator, or will be greatly clouded because of your religious beliefs."

1. Ignorance because you refer to our Creator "I Am" as an "it", so you must have never gone to church, or hear a sermon on TV, or had a Jehovah Witness, or a Mormon visit your home, or read even a chapter from the Bible, Koran or the Book of Mormon because if you were introduced to even one of these, you would not refer to our Creator as an "it". Every Christian, and non-Christian religion refers to God as a He, not an "it".

And every revealed religion has manufactured their own god and anthropomorphized it. That's one of the reasons I rejected the Christian religion I was raised under.

Same here, for similar reasons. I have found God outside of religion and its indoctrinations, and He is not an IT, you should know that if you read the Bible. Unless you believe you are an 'it' also, after all, you were created in your Creators image.

Finding God in the Bible isn't finding It outside of religion. And I think if we do pass on, our spirits will be without gender, and that we only need reference to gender here while being incubated in these biological bodies that necessarily reproduce. But yes I would be an it in It's image. I assume you believe in an afterlife. Why would we need sex there? Why would God? Before we know the gender of a baby, we generally refer to it as an "it".

2. Religious blindness. Where your Big-bang Evolution religion through its many science-distorted Journals, books has blinded your view of even a possibility of a Creator because of the obvious reasons; Big Bang Evolution is not about Creation.

Wrong again. Because of the Big Bang, I believe the chance that God did it as opposed to their being no God is equal. The odds being equal, I lean towards God based on hope.

I suggest you look for evidence, both in the BB Evolution, and God your Creator. I hope my old greedy multi-millionaire boss friend would come by one day and give me a hundred dollars, but 40 years of evidence is contrary to that hope.

I just love the word greed. It's almost always assumed to be a bad thing, and it would be if a person's wealth was ill-gotten. But it's usually just fired at someone who is wealthier than the person using it. I expect 95% percent of the world's population could use that word against you with a lot more justification than you have. In most cases, it's just another word for envy. And yes I am wealthy, but not by US standards...at all.

3. Hate. Because of your self-righteousness and pride, you deny and debase your Creator in His face by referring to Him as an 'it'.

If it was a sin, then I expect It to tell me so to my face, not through some 3000 year old self-appointed prophet, or one of a more recent vintage.

Telling the truth is not arrogance,

Let me stop you right there. My whole religion is about Truth. Truth is God, and in that image i am made and try my damnedest to pursue/worship the Truth.

There is a great cost in telling the truth my friend, but if you were of the Constantine invented Christian religions, .. I understand why you would never have known that. The world loves its own, especially obvious here in this country and in the Catholic countries.

When I left Christianity, it was a rejection of all revealed religions.

You start with "If God exists, .." can you at least give us a hint as to how you imagine this non-human quality "it" so we Believers could understand a little more about your god version "it"? Have you seen or read of a god-like machine, or rock, or a wood statue 'create' any biological beings? I just want to know where you get the "it" from?

As I just said Truth is God, wherever that leads, whether It is a super spirit being or a nothing at all. And Truth demands that I remember that I don't know. I have learned to live without knowing. For me, the only reason I believe in God is hope. And if It does exist, It created the universe for one reason only--as a natural, rational stage where we can exercise our free will using reason, and make our moral choices on our own. Then, on our deathbed we know who we really are, if we can avoid lying to ourselves...again.

You asked.

All I know is that we live in a perfectly all natural, rational universe about which we have no idea how it came to be. You say God and it may be. The atheists say no-God and that may be. There is no rational evidence either way, only 3000+ year-old hearsay.

YetyYou give It a gender based on mythology.

Again, you are thinking of the wrong God. You will never find God our Creator through, or in religious mythologies and sci-fi stories. But people do tend to believe in religiously created sci-fi mythological gods, just look up "Heavens Gate" cult. I don't create gods in my image.

I am many decades into my life, with religion as my avocation all the time. But it was only in the last year that I started referring to God as It. Not an It, btw, the It, thus the capitalization. I wish there were a more accurate word but there isn't.

I know what you mean, may I suggest;
Use your free will and get out of religion, get rid of the ideas of all them religiously created ideas of gods, and start searching for the truth.

That's precisely what I'm doing.

If you lost your hope and your ability to distinguish truth from lies, I can help you, be more than willing to help you. The gods you are referring to as 'It' are exactly that; it, not real. So I guess you are on your way, just don't give up. Now the next step is for you to become an atheist, realize that the gods you were taught in theology are not real.. just don't make atheism your new religion like millions have already done.

When I left Christianity, I went straight to deism where I've been ever since. I could easily have converted my sense of betrayal by ALL revealed religions into becoming an angry atheist. If I ever feel like abandoning all hope and surrendering my God given free will, then I might come back, or I could just as easily become a Satanist. The reasoning, or rather the lack of it, is the same--blind faith. Somebody says "Believe!", and I'd say "How low!"

[ThePainefulTruth]

Deleted dupe.

[H.sapiens]

[Replying to Divine Insight]
I just needed to walk around the house to the other side. I flipped a coin, heads or clockwise, tails for counterclockwise, it was heads so I walked around the house clockwise. I did the same thing to return, but I decided to go the opposite way indicated. Seems pretty free will to me unless pixie dust influences the coin or clouds my mind.

[Peter]

[Replying to Divine Insight]
I just needed to walk around the house to the other side. I flipped a coin, heads or clockwise, tails for counterclockwise, it was heads so I walked around the house clockwise. I did the same thing to return, but I decided to go the opposite way indicated. Seems pretty free will to me unless pixie dust influences the coin or clouds my mind.

You made choices. Everybody makes choices. Amoeba make choices but free will is something much more. Free will is the ability to make a choice you didn't, or wouldn't, make. Free will is the ability to float free of yourself and examine all the reasons you make a choice, all the consequences and then, if necessary, countermand a choice you would make without free will. Free will requires a soul. I don't have free will and I'm pretty sure nobody does.

[H.sapiens]

[Replying to Divine Insight]
I just needed to walk around the house to the other side. I flipped a coin, heads or clockwise, tails for counterclockwise, it was heads so I walked around the house clockwise. I did the same thing to return, but I decided to go the opposite way indicated. Seems pretty free will to me unless pixie dust influences the coin or clouds my mind.

You made choices. Everybody makes choices. Amoeba make choices but free will is something much more. Free will is the ability to make a choice you didn't, or wouldn't, make. Free will is the ability to float free of yourself and examine all the reasons you make a choice, all the consequences and then, if necessary, countermand a choice you would make without free will. Free will requires a soul. I don't have free will and I'm pretty sure nobody does.

I would maintain that I have as much free will as any father and husband might have but I have no soul, soul's being only available to pixie dust users.

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 371 by Peter]

I don't believe free will necessarily means non-deterministic.

The only way a soul can explain that kind of free will (indeterminism) is true randomness (I doubt the religious would be happier saying "we're punished because of our literal bad luck" to "because of our choices").

Even then, I don't believe in true randomness because any random choices could be treated as part of the constants making a deterministic system.

[ThePainefulTruth]

[Replying to post 370 by H.sapiens]

Don't know about DI, but philosophical free will refers to moral choices. We obviously can't use free will to avoid natural law, luck, coincidence or (apparently) death.

[Peter]

[Replying to Divine Insight]
I just needed to walk around the house to the other side. I flipped a coin, heads or clockwise, tails for counterclockwise, it was heads so I walked around the house clockwise. I did the same thing to return, but I decided to go the opposite way indicated. Seems pretty free will to me unless pixie dust influences the coin or clouds my mind.

You made choices. Everybody makes choices. Amoeba make choices but free will is something much more. Free will is the ability to make a choice you didn't, or wouldn't, make. Free will is the ability to float free of yourself and examine all the reasons you make a choice, all the consequences and then, if necessary, countermand a choice you would make without free will. Free will requires a soul. I don't have free will and I'm pretty sure nobody does.

I would maintain that I have as much free will as any father and husband might have but I have no soul, soul's being only available to pixie dust users.

I should have said something like a soul. Picture a magic little man on your shoulder whispering strong advice on choices in your ear.

[arian]

Finding God in the Bible isn't finding It outside of religion. And I think if we do pass on, our spirits will be without gender, and that we only need reference to gender here while being incubated in these biological bodies that necessarily reproduce. But yes I would be an it in It's image. I assume you believe in an afterlife. Why would we need sex there? Why would God? Before we know the gender of a baby, we generally refer to it as an "it".

Sorry my friend, I got busy and missed your post.

I'm sorry but finding 'God' which the Bible happens to explain in detail IS outside of religion.
What is religion, I can play tennis every day religiously and never worship a god or go to church.
Also, can you show me where people worship 'God' in the Bible religiously? Every Christian church I have visited so far for the past 50 years, every one of them and I have visited many, worshipped a Deity, or deities, demons either singular but mostly plural, more then one.

Here, I explain here a little better;
[urlhttp://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.phpt=26659&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60#top[/url]

2. Religious blindness. Where your Big-bang Evolution religion through its many science-distorted Journals, books has blinded your view of even a possibility of a Creator because of the obvious reasons; Big Bang Evolution is not about Creation.

Wrong again. Because of the Big Bang, I believe the chance that God did it as opposed to their being no God is equal. The odds being equal, I lean towards God based on hope.

I suggest you look for evidence, both in the BB Evolution, and God your Creator. I hope my old greedy multi-millionaire boss friend would come by one day and give me a hundred dollars, but 40 years of evidence is contrary to that hope.

I just love the word greed. It's almost always assumed to be a bad thing, and it would be if a person's wealth was ill-gotten. But it's usually just fired at someone who is wealthier than the person using it. I expect 95% percent of the world's population could use that word against you with a lot more justification than you have. In most cases, it's just another word for envy. And yes I am wealthy, but not by US standards...at all.

Greed used against me by 95% of the worlds population?
Can you ate least point out why you think that 'arian', a debater on Debating Christianity & Religion would be considered 'greedy' by 95% of the people?

I guess you can cut pieces of my posts to prove this since that is about all you know about me. I have plenty of posts to choose from, thousands so that should be easy.

3. Hate. Because of your self-righteousness and pride, you deny and debase your Creator in His face by referring to Him as an 'it'.

If it was a sin, then I expect It to tell me so to my face, not through some 3000 year old self-appointed prophet, or one of a more recent vintage.

You would never survive the personal encounter.

I'm sure He is letting you know, and if you had an ear to hear, you would have heard Him by now.

Telling the truth is not arrogance,

Let me stop you right there. My whole religion is about Truth. Truth is God, and in that image i am made and try my damnedest to pursue/worship the Truth.

OK then.

There is a great cost in telling the truth my friend, but if you were of the Constantine invented Christian religions, .. I understand why you would never have known that. The world loves its own, especially obvious here in this country and in the Catholic countries.

When I left Christianity, it was a rejection of all revealed religions.

Why is that, are you doing what the WBC The Phelps are doing?

You start with "If God exists, .." can you at least give us a hint as to how you imagine this non-human quality "it" so we Believers could understand a little more about your god version "it"? Have you seen or read of a god-like machine, or rock, or a wood statue 'create' any biological beings? I just want to know where you get the "it" from?

As I just said Truth is God, wherever that leads, whether It is a super spirit being or a nothing at all. And Truth demands that I remember that I don't know. I have learned to live without knowing. For me, the only reason I believe in God is hope. And if It does exist, It created the universe for one reason only--as a natural, rational stage where we can exercise our free will using reason, and make our moral choices on our own. Then, on our deathbed we know who we really are, if we can avoid lying to ourselves...again.

You asked.

There is no 'truth' in "nothing at all", .. because "nothing at all" is 'nothing at all'.

When I left Christianity, I went straight to deism where I've been ever since. I could easily have converted my sense of betrayal by ALL revealed religions into becoming an angry atheist. If I ever feel like abandoning all hope and surrendering my God given free will, then I might come back, or I could just as easily become a Satanist. The reasoning, or rather the lack of it, is the same--blind faith. Somebody says "Believe!", and I'd say "How low!"

gods created by religious doctrines are not 'God', actually more like demons or Satan himself. Pope Francis has announced this, so the cat is out of the bag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Jc61xBfcGI

Also, the rest of the Christian dominations are returning to "mother of all religions", the Catholic Church and her Deity Lucifer and awaiting the coming of his son Jesus Christ (anti-Christ according to the Bible)

The reason I am telling you this is so you would not just go back to that 'blind-faith', instead a faith with substance built on evidence. It is what is required for true faith.

Blind-faith is required by the religions, all religions.