I posted this under the "Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma" forum because I want it to be dealt with within a Christian context. That is, what should a Christian's perspective be on lying.
Question for debate:
Is it possible for a lie to be ethical and/or moral behavior for a Christian?
A Lie: Is it necessarily wrong?
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McCulloch
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Post #2
Matthew 5:37
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil.
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
New International Version (NIV)
Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
King James Version (KJV)
But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
English Standard Version (ESV)
Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything more than this comes from evil.
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version Copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a division of Good News Publishers.
New Living Translation (NLT)
Just say a simple, ‘Yes, I will,’ or ‘No, I won’t.’ Anything beyond this is from the evil one.
Holy Bible. New Living Translation copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers.
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil.
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
New International Version (NIV)
Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
King James Version (KJV)
But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
English Standard Version (ESV)
Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything more than this comes from evil.
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version Copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a division of Good News Publishers.
New Living Translation (NLT)
Just say a simple, ‘Yes, I will,’ or ‘No, I won’t.’ Anything beyond this is from the evil one.
Holy Bible. New Living Translation copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
Re: A Lie: Is it necessarily wrong?
Post #3Under my own definition it is not. IMO, the standard definitions for the term "lie" are inadequate. I have thought some time about this and have concluded the most meaningful way to define the term would include the notion of malice when telling the untruth. Additionally, a lie must include the notion of doing something that you suspect or know would not be for the net betterment of the recipient of said lie. Does that make sense?tselem wrote:Is it possible for a lie to be ethical and/or moral behavior for a Christian?
In other words, the untruth of Santa Claus I tell my children would not be considered a lie as it does not involve malice nor is it meant to impede that individual's overall growth but rather contributes to his betterment.
Otherwise, sticking by the standard definition would require one to introduce gradations of lies (i.e., white lie) in an effort to create a distinction between those untruths involving malice and those that do not.
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ken1burton
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Post #4
To lie? Cute, There is so many different concepts of that.
1-Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him , and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
God sent a Lying Spirit. Not quite as it seems. God spoke through the Prophets of things to happen in the future, God using them as similitudes of “LIES� Till they are fulfilled, Then they are Truth, But not until.
So if I were to say “I will.� or “I won’t�. I am speaking a lie. It might become true, and I do, or I don’t, But I am predicting a future event.
When Jesus said to swear not at all, That means no promises, No oaths, No vows, Not even a statement like “I will never talk to you again.� as they bind a person, with their own words, Then pride will often not allow the person to talk to the one who was spoken to.
Children learn to bind parents at a very early age, “Promise me!�, “Well, You promised to take me!�, Etc This is why anything more then yea, or nay, cometh of evil.
We might not be able to keep what we said we would do, So better to just use words like, I might.
A very seldom used verse, from the Old Testament:
Leviticus 5:4 Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty in one of these.
Just saying You are going to do this, or that. Even without a sworn oath, Is not good, The guilt is that you now have to do the thing, God can keep promises, He therefore can make them, But mankind, Who knows if we have tomorrow on earth to do the things we speak of?
Let God be true, and every man a liar. I do not think that means for us to let God be True, But to allow for the fact that every man tells things that they might believe to be true, or will happen, But often, events have a way of not happening as we have planned, or doing that which is expected of us by another.
I know a few people which can be seen if they are lying, Their lips move. I can not even understand why they do it, But they always have to speak what they know is not true. It is more of a game for them.
By lying as in being wicked, That is not even needed to be in question, We all know that is wrong.
Ken
1-Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him , and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
God sent a Lying Spirit. Not quite as it seems. God spoke through the Prophets of things to happen in the future, God using them as similitudes of “LIES� Till they are fulfilled, Then they are Truth, But not until.
So if I were to say “I will.� or “I won’t�. I am speaking a lie. It might become true, and I do, or I don’t, But I am predicting a future event.
When Jesus said to swear not at all, That means no promises, No oaths, No vows, Not even a statement like “I will never talk to you again.� as they bind a person, with their own words, Then pride will often not allow the person to talk to the one who was spoken to.
Children learn to bind parents at a very early age, “Promise me!�, “Well, You promised to take me!�, Etc This is why anything more then yea, or nay, cometh of evil.
We might not be able to keep what we said we would do, So better to just use words like, I might.
A very seldom used verse, from the Old Testament:
Leviticus 5:4 Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty in one of these.
Just saying You are going to do this, or that. Even without a sworn oath, Is not good, The guilt is that you now have to do the thing, God can keep promises, He therefore can make them, But mankind, Who knows if we have tomorrow on earth to do the things we speak of?
Let God be true, and every man a liar. I do not think that means for us to let God be True, But to allow for the fact that every man tells things that they might believe to be true, or will happen, But often, events have a way of not happening as we have planned, or doing that which is expected of us by another.
I know a few people which can be seen if they are lying, Their lips move. I can not even understand why they do it, But they always have to speak what they know is not true. It is more of a game for them.
By lying as in being wicked, That is not even needed to be in question, We all know that is wrong.
Ken
