Jesus tasted death for every man

[beloved57]

heb 2:

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Many today use this verse of scripture to teach that Jesus christ died for every single person in the world, that is he tasted death for all who ever lived.

But is this what this scripture teaches ? What does the word taste mean ?



1) to taste, to try the flavour of
2) to taste
a) i.e. perceive the flavour of, partake of, enjoy
b) to feel, make trial of, experience
3) to take food, eat, to take nourishment, eat

I dont believe taste here is describing his passion or suffering , or shedding of his blood. I think that is expressed clearly in earlier portion of the verse
Quote:
who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death

Therefore why the repetition ? Hence a better reading of this most misused verse would be..

That christ has savoured death for every man , that is death has lost its sting , saints Gods covenant people no longer need fear death..as in heb 2


14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

So instead of this being a verse that is misapplied to teach universal atonement..it is actually a verse to minister comfort to the covenant children..

1 thess 4:

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Does this make sense ?

[justifyothers]

heb 2:

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Many today use this verse of scripture to teach that Jesus christ died for every single person in the world, that is he tasted death for all who ever lived.

But is this what this scripture teaches ? What does the word taste mean ?



1) to taste, to try the flavour of
2) to taste
a) i.e. perceive the flavour of, partake of, enjoy
b) to feel, make trial of, experience
3) to take food, eat, to take nourishment, eat

I dont believe taste here is describing his passion or suffering , or shedding of his blood. I think that is expressed clearly in earlier portion of the verse
Quote:
who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death

Therefore why the repetition ? Hence a better reading of this most misused verse would be..

That christ has savoured death for every man , that is death has lost its sting , saints Gods covenant people no longer need fear death..as in heb 2


14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

So instead of this being a verse that is misapplied to teach universal atonement..it is actually a verse to minister comfort to the covenant children..

1 thess 4:

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Does this make sense ?

Absolutely not. Much of what Paul wrote doesn't make sense. It is contrary to what Jesus taught.
We must assume that Jesus died for all, otherwise we get into the despicable doctrine of calvinism and the chosen that he did die for. This ONLY has a negative impact on others, unless they are fortunate enough to realize that they too, are covenant children.

Where is the good news in this doctrine?
Where are the glad tidings?
Also, in what you provided, I cannot see anything that refutes universal salvation. The savouring/tasting definitions didn't help your point much. He still "savoured" it for every man, according to what you cited.

[beloved57]

He still "savoured" it for every man, according to what you cited.

nope you evidently only read what you wanted to see ..i cited that he did this for his covenant children..read my post again and I cited that because thats the context of the passage heb 2:

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

In fact the whole book of hebrews is written from a jewish covenanet perspective..it never ever implys all of humanity..

[justifyothers]

[quote="beloved57]
In fact the whole book of hebrews is written from a jewish covenanet perspective..it never ever implys all of humanity..[/quote]

same author wrote:
"gave Himself as a ransom for all, to be testified in due season" (1Tim. 2:6),

and that although all are now dying in Adam, "so in Christ will all be made alive--but each in his own order" (1Cor. 15:22-28.)

[beloved57]

justot says

same author wrote:
"gave Himself as a ransom for all, to be testified in due season" (1Tim. 2:6),

and that although all are now dying in Adam, "so in Christ will all be made alive--but each in his own order" (1Cor. 15:22-28.)

So do you mean to imply that all humanity will be saved the elect and non elect, the sheep the goats, the wheat and tares ?

[Salt Agent]

Hebrews 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Many today use this verse of scripture to teach that Jesus christ died for every single person in the world, that is he tasted death for all who ever lived.

But is this what this scripture teaches ? What does the word taste mean?

1) to taste, to try the flavour of
2) to taste
a) i.e. perceive the flavour of, partake of, enjoy
b) to feel, make trial of, experience
3) to take food, eat, to take nourishment, eat

I dont believe taste here is describing his passion or suffering , or shedding of his blood. I think that is expressed clearly in earlier portion of the verse
Quote:
who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death

Therefore why the repetition ? Hence a better reading of this most misused verse would be..

That christ has savoured death for every man, that is death has lost its sting, saints Gods covenant people no longer need fear death..as in heb 2

So instead of this being a verse that is misapplied to teach universal atonement..it is actually a verse to minister comfort to the covenant children..

Does this make sense ?

No it doesn't. Could you clarify what is the question for debate? Are you saying 1) that Christ died for everyone, or 2) that you believe that is the same as Universal Salvation, or 3) that He died only for a select few, but not others, not all mankind? Or maybe something else.

"saints Gods covenant people no longer need fear death" This is a case of eisegesis.

eis·e·ge·sis [ahy-si-jee-sis] Pronunciation Key
–noun, plural -ses an interpretation, esp. of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text.

[Origin: 1890–95; < Gk eisgesis, equiv. to eis- into + (h)ége- (s. of hége&#464;sthai to lead) + -sis -sis] ei·se·get·ic
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

eisegesis

noun - personal interpretation of a text (especially of the Bible) using your own ideas.
and also ignoring the clear meaning of the written text.

Nothing in this text says or implies anything about it only applying to God's covenant people, the Jews. You simply throw out the clear meaning and insert your own "interpretation".

So instead of this being a verse that is misapplied to teach universal atonement...
Classic Calvinist Fallacy 101. Either you don't know the difference between Universal Calling, and Universal Salvation, or else you do know, and are intentionally implying the text teaches something that is clearly refuted elsewhere. I don't want to accuse you of something, so we will give you the benefit of the doubt, Beloved, this time.

Universal Atonement, or Universal Salvation is the notion that all people everywhere will be/ or are saved, so that Christ's death automatically guarantees salvation for the whole world, without man repenting, confessing, believing, or anything. This is totally and clearly unBiblical, and no mainstream Arminian or Remonstrant denomination in the US teaches Universal Salvation.
On the contrary, the Depravity of Man is one of the most universally agreed doctrines within all Christiandom.

Many Calvinists know the difference and use the terms interchangeably. Some realize that Arminians and Remonstrants and Baptists, don't believe in Universal Salvation. However, Calvinisism denies free will, so to acknowledge Universal Calling, would be a blow to the Calvinist house of cards.

Universal Calling is that Christ's death paid the penalty for the sins of all mankind, and fulfilled Christ's prediction about what kind of death he would die, and that as a result, he would draw all men to himself. John 12:32,33** See below. They don't all accept salvation, because we have free will. Universal Calling speaks to the invitation -- the offer, not to the Universal result.

"What does the word taste mean?" What does the word "Death" mean? and what about "Every man"? What about "Everyone" and "Whosoever", and "not only for our sins, [believers], but also for the sins of the whole world." Clearly not just the "elect."
I John 2:1-2

The first principle of Biblical interpretation is that if the Bible seems to make literal sense, seek no other sense, or it will become nonsense. Then we compare passages to the whole counsel of scripture, and see if there are more clear passages to either support or contradict our interpretation. We also examine Greek and Hebrew lexicons to see if there is a translation issue which could color our understanding -- some concepts don't translate, some languages have different literary forms.

Here is a suggestion. How about we just make a list side by side of all the verses that explicitly state that Christ died for everyone, all the world, etc, etc, and all Christ's offers for anyone, everyone, whosoever, any man, etc. etc.

How about we start with John 12:32,33 and Hebrews 2:9, without your eisegesis. New American Standard Bible (NASB)

32 "And I, if I (A)am lifted up from the earth, will (B)draw all men to Myself."
Cross references:
John 3:14; 8:28; 12:34
John 6:44

33 But He was saying this (A)to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

Cross references:
John 18:32; 21:19

1 John 2:1-2
Christ Is Our Advocate
1 (A)My little children, I am (B)writing these things to you so that you may not sin And if anyone sins, (C)we have an (D)Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is (E)the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also (F)for those of the whole world.



Beloved, I have respectfully and repeatedly asked you to clarify your points, position, statements, or opening threads. You have not done so.

I have also respectfully and repeatedly asked you to simply give a list of all the verses that explicitly say in black and white that Christ only died for the elect...
that Christ's death was exclusively for some, but not for others...
That God predestined some to go to Hell...
That God desires that only some, the select few come to repentence...
That God takes pleasure in the death of the wicked...
That Christ's death only provided salvation for certain ones, but not others, or not the rest of the world.

There are none-- but plenty of clear verses that explicitly say the opposite.
You need to consider why you persistently cling to ideas that blatently contradict clear Biblical teaching.

Respectfully,

Grace and Peace.

Salt Agent.

[justifyothers]

justot says

same author wrote:
"gave Himself as a ransom for all, to be testified in due season" (1Tim. 2:6),

and that although all are now dying in Adam, "so in Christ will all be made alive--but each in his own order" (1Cor. 15:22-28.)

So do you mean to imply that all humanity will be saved the elect and non elect, the sheep the goats, the wheat and tares ?

I was giving you samples of other scripture that refutes what you claim. How do you find congruency among these passages?

For the record, I do believe that universal salvation is a possibility. God's justice and ability to forgive must be so many times greater than ours. This must be one of the things that sets Him above us. The fact that some cling to the selfish hope that others will perish or perhaps burn for eternity is an evil human characteristic and we must not assign this attribute to God.

Why do you think that because you seek the destruction of others, that God must also? The bible contradicts itself intensely on this issue. We must use the other gifts that God has bestowed upon us to determine what is right and true to the best of our abilities.

I can only say that if you are truly aligned with God, the question of 'the elect' and 'eternal suffering' must come up often. Why is that? Is God trying to tell us something? If this seems cruel to us - it must seem only that much more cruel to the God that created us and gave us this sense of compassion. As our creator, and if we are made in His image, He must be greater than us - not opposite.

[beloved57]

just says

I

was giving you samples of other scripture that refutes what you claim. How do you find congruency among these passages?

You failed to do so they only affirm ..explain how they contradict...most people like you really are ignorant to truth of the scripture..

For the record, I do believe that universal salvation is a possibility

why am i not suprised lol..

God's justice and ability to forgive must be so many times greater than ours. This must be one of the things that sets Him above us. The fact that some cling to the selfish hope that others will perish or perhaps burn for eternity is an evil human characteristic and we must not assign this attribute to God.

I told you you are ignorant of scripture..

num 14 18

The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

You just make up a god you wanna believe in and refuse The revealation of God in scripture..

Why do you think that because you seek the destruction of others, that God must also? The bible contradicts itself intensely on this issue. We must use the other gifts that God has bestowed upon us to determine what is right and true to the best of our abilities.

sure it contradicts itself when it goes against your filthy logic..

can only say that if you are truly aligned with God, the question of 'the elect' and 'eternal suffering' must come up often. Why is that? Is God trying to tell us something? If this seems cruel to us - it must seem only that much more cruel to the God that created us and gave us this sense of compassion. As our creator, and if we are made in His image, He must be greater than us - not opposite.

The bible teaches the eternal destiny of the elect and that of the goats..

matt 25:

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Now pick out what you believe and what you dont want to believe like at your neighborhood convience store..you are a joke dont send me no more messages.

since you have the luxury of picking and choosing what you want to debate what is the bible and what isnt thats a spiritual coward way out..

[Salt Agent]

sure it contradicts itself when it goes against your filthy logic...

The bible teaches the eternal destiny of the elect and that of the goats..

Matthew 25:

Now pick out what you believe and what you dont want to believe like at your neighborhood convience store..you are a joke dont send me no more messages.

since you have the luxury of picking and choosing what you want to debate what is the bible and what isnt thats a spiritual coward way out.."

Hello, Beloved,

The tone and hostility and attitude of your response seems quite over the top, or rather not exactly like what Christ taught, huh.

I don't know if you claim to be Christian, or if Justify Others does, for that matter. I disagree with her, and I disagree with you, but I also affirm and respect your opinion and the right to believe them, and to prove my point/discuss it in a manner that is not hostile.

Beloved57 says, "The bible teaches the eternal destiny of the elect and that of the goats..."

I presume you consider yourself to be one of the elect??

I find it so ironic that the ones who hijack the term "Reform Theology" and "Doctrines of Grace" are frequently the least gracious to those who disagree.

Justify Others has at least made an attempt to give scriptures which support her position.

Granted, there are numerous others that teach against Universal Salvation, but you haven't even responded to my respectful request for clarification, as to the question of the debate, or defining your terms, or clear verses to back your claims.

I would kindly ask you to acknowledge that you are aware of the difference between Universal Salvation- everyone is/will be saved and Universal Offer- Universal Offer of Eternal life - contrasted with Limited Atonement. .
Not that you agree with either, just that they are two distinct doctrines. . For the record, Baptists, Arminians and Remonstrants, [Wesleyans, Nazarenes, Bible Methodists, Pentacostals, etc] do not teach or believe Universal Salvation.

As of now, you can't claim to not know the difference. Please don't continue to say or imply that Arminians, or Remonstrants teach Universal Atonement. [They believe Salvation was provided for by Christ's death, but scripture is very clear that not everyone is or will be saved.] To do so further, would be an intentional lie. Hebrews. 2:9, I John 2:1,2, II Peter 3:9, I Peter 3:18, John 12:32,33

Jacob Arminius was first a Calvinist, but he became dissatisfied with the answers and position of the Calvinists. Would that mean he was predestined to have free will to switch?

Cordially,

Salt Agent.

[byofrcs]

heb 2:

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Many today use this verse of scripture to teach that Jesus christ died for every single person in the world, that is he tasted death for all who ever lived.

But is this what this scripture teaches ? What does the word taste mean ?



1) to taste, to try the flavour of
2) to taste
a) i.e. perceive the flavour of, partake of, enjoy
b) to feel, make trial of, experience
3) to take food, eat, to take nourishment, eat

I dont believe taste here is describing his passion or suffering , or shedding of his blood. .............

Does this make sense ?

No. It was written in Greek, not English. If you want to find out the meaning of a word - use the Source and look at how people have translated it over time.

It clearly says to taste death for all (e.g. the Spanish Sagradas Escrituras 1569 = gustase la muerte por todos, the Italian Giovanni Diodati Bible 1649 "gustasse la morte per tutti". My Greek is rubbish. Someone else can provide that. The meaning at least in those translations is pretty obvious.

That aside, whomever so wrote this Letter to the Hebrews was selling Jesus as a universal saviour i.e. ultimately what also drove the name "katholikos".

So within the mythology of Jesus and as the early church slowly built up the story, the intent I feel is clearly that Jesus was for all rather than a few. It's early Church marketing. Nowadays they'd use Youtube or something.