GotScripture wrote:ken1burton wrote:Peter was not the most loved disciple, I assume you are referring to the Disciple Jesus loved, who laid on His breast at the last supper. Believed to be John. John speaks of that Disciple, no one wants to use his name, Goes to great lengths not to use it. John uses words like “He” “They” “They” when talking of Peter and that Disciple Jesus loved running to the Sepulchre, John is using Third party, not we, us, or I.
You say 'believed to be John' but since there is not even a single verse anywhere in scripture that would justify teaching the idea that John was the unnamed "other disciple whom Jesus loved", Ps. 118:8 is surely a word of caution against relying on the non-Bible sources on which this man-made tradtion is based.
You say 'John speaks of that Disciple' -- no John does not. In fact John who openly identifies himself multiple times in the Book of Revelation clearly has no problem revealing his identity -- quite the opposite BEHAVIOR of what we find exhibited by the anonymous "other disciple whom Jesus loved" who wrote the fourth gospel.
You says 'John is using Third party' but John does nothing of the kind. While it is true as you did note that this unnamed disciple goes to great lenghts to conceal his identity -- using terms like "the disciple whom Jesus loved", "the other disciple" or "other disciple whom Jesus loved" to refer to himself without using his name -- you falsely assume that this person was John when the Bible proves otherwise.
WHOEVER this person was the fact is that the Biblical evidence proves that he was not John. I have just begun a head-to-head debate on this topic with Jester so I won't take the time to debate the matter here also, but I do invite you to check out the "Gospel of John or not" thread in the one-on-one debated section to see the Biblical evidence that Jester and I present on this topic.
One should certainly not be presenting an idea
as if it were Biblical if they cannot cite even a single verse that would justify teaching that idea. So to add John's name (or anything else) to the text where it was not put by God's inspired author is not a good habit to get into. The traditions of men can seem true but Ps. 118:8 makes it clear that we should look elsewhere for the truth.
John Authorship
We do have a church tradition cited by Irenaeus (c. 180 AD), who quotes Polycarp:
John, the disciple of the Lord, who leaned back on his breast, published the Gospel while he was resident at Ephesus in Asia...
Authorship and canonicity (authenticity).
A. John the apostle has traditionally been accepted as the author of the fourth gospel since the early Church fathers.
1. Irenaeus, circa 200AD, a leading theologian of an authoritative canon of Scriptures, accepted John as the author of the Gospel of John.
2. Clement of Alexandria, 150-200AD, a Christian apologist and missionary to the Hellenistic (Greek) culture, produced many writings certifying John as the author of this gospel.
B. Authorship by John is further substantiated in the writings of the Muratorian Canon dated 180-200AD. (This is a Latin list of New Testament writings regarded as canonical and discovered by the Italian, Lodovico Musatori, and published in 1740.)
C. External sources of canonicity are attested by the Egerton Papyrus 2, dated before 150AD (C.H. Dodd, New Testament Studies, 1953 pp 1552) and also attested by Tatian in his writing, Diatesaron, circa 200AD. (This writing is a combination of the four gospels in one narrative.)
D. Internal attestation of both authorship and canonicity is seen in a classical formulation from B. F. Westcott and J. B. Lightfoot, (Biblical Essays, 1893, pp 1198) where it is demonstrated that the gospel was written:
1. By a Jew. Jn.1:19-28 references the Jewish expectation of the coming of Christ; Jn.4:9, the author knew the Jewish feelings towards the Samaritans; Jn.4:20, the Jewish attitude towards worship and acquaintance with the Jewish feasts; cp. Jn.18:39, noting the custom of the Passover for the Romans to release a Jewish prisoner.
2. By a Palestinian Jew. The author was acquainted with the geography, especially around Jerusalem, cp. Jn.9:7; 11:18; 18:1. Also, the cities of Galilee and the territory of Samaria, Jn.1:44; 2:1; 4:5,6,21.
3. By an eyewitness of events, Jn.1:14 "We beheld His glory"; 19:35 (author speaking in the third person) "And he who has seen has borne witness (event of the Cross)." The author knew the number and size of the pots at the wedding of Cana, Jn.2:6.
4. By the "beloved disciple" and close associate of the apostle Peter, Jn.21:7; cp. 13:23 (last supper, this rules out Peter). Since James was killed early in the history of the Church, and Thomas and Philip are mentioned so frequently in the third person (the author speaks of himself in the third person), John the son of Zebedee is the best remaining possibility.
5. The language and thinking of the author of the Gospel of John is parallel with the first epistle of John, cp. 1Jn.1:1ff.
http://www.versebyverse.org/doctrine/intro-john.html
EXTERNAL EVIDENCE FOR AUTHORSHIP
The early church history testifies that the apostle John, brother of James and son of Zebedee, was the writer of the fourth Gospel. The external evidence for the fourth Gospel is impressive. The earliest known fragment of any part of the New Testament is a tiny papyrus fragment containing words from John 18, and is dated about AD 130. This ancient portion of the Gospel can be seen in John Rylands University Library in Manchester, England.
One principle witness of the early church who said that the fourth Gospel was written by John was Irenaeus. He wrote around AD 177. He not only spoke of the Gospel as being authoritative but said this about the author, "John, the disciple of the Lord, who also leant upon his breast, himself published the gospel in Ephesus, when he was living in Asia."
Irenaeus attached importance to reliable Christian tradition. For example, Polycarp who is said to be a disciple of John the apostle is said to have quoted from the fourth Gospel. Irenaeus has this to say about his association with Polycarp.
"I remember the events of those days more clearly than those which have taken place recently, for what we learn as boys grows up with our lives and becomes united to them. So I can describe for you the very place where the blessed Polycarp sat and discoursed, how he came in and went out, his manner of life and his bodily appearance, the discourses which he used to deliver to the people, and how he would tell of his converse with John and with the others who had seen the Lord, how he remembered their words, and what things he had heard from them about the Lord, including his mighty works and his teaching."
Clement of Alexandria AD 200 also speaks of John as the author. Frank Pack in is commentary on John says this about Clement:
Clement of Alexandria reported that after the death of Domitian the apostle returned from Patmos to Ephesus (Who is the rich man? 42; Eusebius, Church History III. xxiii. 5, 6). In his Hypotyposeis Clement preserved the tradition that this Gospel was written last, John, last of all, conscious that the outward (lit. bodily) facts had been set forth in the Gospels, was urged by his disciples, and, divinely approved by the Spirit, composed a spiritual Gospel (Eusebius, Church History VI. xiv. 7).7
Furthermore, the Muratorian Canon (circa AD 170-180), which contains a list of New Testament books compiled in Latin states:
John, one of the disciples, wrote the Fourth Gospel. When his fellow disciples and the bishops urged him to do so, he said, 'Join me in fasting for three days, and then let us relate to one another what shall be revealed to each.' The same night it was revealed to Andrew, one of the apostles that John write down everything in his own name, and that they all should revise it.8
The Muratorian Canon goes on to state:
And therefore, although varying principles are taught in the several books of the gospel, yet it makes no difference to the faith of believers, since everything is set forth in them all by one directing Spirit, concerning the Lord's nativity, his passion, his resurrection, his converse with his disciples and his twofold advent - first in lowliness, without honour, which is past; secondly in royal power and glory, which is yet future. No wonder, then, that John so explicitly lays claim in his letters also these experiences one by one, saying of himself, 'What we have seen with our eyes and heard with our ears and our hands have touched this is what we have written.' Thus he claims not to be a spectator and hearer only but also a writer of all the Lord's wonders in due order.9
Moreover, another piece of evidence is a man by the name of Polycrates. Tasker in his book on the fourth Gospel records this about him:
Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus, in a letter to Victor, bishop of Rome, which is usually dated about AD 190, states that 'John who reclined on the breast of the Lord' was a witness (martus) and a teacher'.10
http://www.waterburychurch.org/misc.asp ... paper=TRUE
