Demonology

[graphicsguy]

Okay, as a Christian I was always exposed to people's stories of casting demons out of someone or of having had a demon cast out of them. Well, okay, not always, but it was a common occurence.

I also went through a "deliverance" session once for my pornography addiction (which, many years later, turned out to be due to my body self-medicating its hormonal imbalance). Anyway, during this deliverance session I was told that sometimes demons can manifest themselves (though that was not my case *whew*). I was taken through a pile of ritual and "visualization" exercises and whatever else. Okay, enough about that...

Anyway, the question is, WHERE does much of Christianity get it's doctrine and methodology regarding and/or dealing with demons?

I mean, when you actually read the Bible there is VERY little to do with demons and/or casting out demons. Certainly not enough, in my mind, to come up with the hundreds and hundreds of books and philosophies dealing with the subject in Christian circles.

[McCulloch]

If demons really exist, as the Bible writers assume, then Christians and others should have had significant first hand experience with them. Surely with a combination of their Biblical knowledge, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and first hand experience, they should be able write lots about them, scientifically prove that they exist and perhaps even eliminate them.

[graphicsguy]

It seems to me that Christianity always wants to use scripture to support doctrinal basis. However, when it comes to the mounds and mounds of doctrine related to demons the amount of scripture is paltry.

Matthew 8:27-33 (demons begged Jesus to cast them out since his presence tortured them)
Matthew 9:32-33 (no method listed)
Matthew 12:21-23 (no method)
Matthew 15:22-28 (no method)
Matthew 17:14-21 (first time a method is listed...prayer and fasting BUT verse 21 is omitted from many modern versions because it does not appear in ancient manuscripts)

Mark 1:34 (no method, but says Jesus would not let them speak)
Mark 5:1-13 (differing re-telling of the Matthew 8 story)
Mark 7:24-30 (re-telling of Matthew 15 story)

Luke 4:31-36 (authoratative method)
Luke 8 (another re-telling of Mark 5 and Matthew 8)

It's a continuous pattern throughout the gospels. Pauls letters and the rest of the NT say nothing of methodology concerning the casting out of demons.

I don't know. It just seems weird that there's all of this doctrine based around it, but their main source of knowledge says very little about it.

[twobitsmedia]

Okay, as a Christian I was always exposed to people's stories of casting demons out of someone or of having had a demon cast out of them. Well, okay, not always, but it was a common occurence.

I also went through a "deliverance" session once for my pornography addiction (which, many years later, turned out to be due to my body self-medicating its hormonal imbalance). Anyway, during this deliverance session I was told that sometimes demons can manifest themselves (though that was not my case *whew*). I was taken through a pile of ritual and "visualization" exercises and whatever else. Okay, enough about that...

Anyway, the question is, WHERE does much of Christianity get it's doctrine and methodology regarding and/or dealing with demons?

I mean, when you actually read the Bible there is VERY little to do with demons and/or casting out demons. Certainly not enough, in my mind, to come up with the hundreds and hundreds of books and philosophies dealing with the subject in Christian circles.

It has been, in my observation, nothing more than a short cut from responsibilty. A "Christian" may say "I have sinned" and blame a spirit, rather than accepting the responsibility for their own actions. The "Charismatics" love this kind of stuff. (The "Charismatics" by my defintion are a fringe group of christianity that are very big into "experience" over doctrine). One gets a sense of pyschological freedom from beleiving they are not responsible, so it is popular. And if something has that much popularity.....it can create volumes of books and doctrines unto itself. Most of the ministries from "TBN" and Peter Popoff are a couple of renowned sources for it. The whole foundation of their "ministries" comes out of just a few verses. Those dealing with any "deliverance" (which offhand I don't think any of them happened to believers, as the deliverance was to be a sign for those who don't believe), and the verse about "binding the strongman."

[seventil]

Okay, as a Christian I was always exposed to people's stories of casting demons out of someone or of having had a demon cast out of them. Well, okay, not always, but it was a common occurence.

I also went through a "deliverance" session once for my pornography addiction (which, many years later, turned out to be due to my body self-medicating its hormonal imbalance). Anyway, during this deliverance session I was told that sometimes demons can manifest themselves (though that was not my case *whew*). I was taken through a pile of ritual and "visualization" exercises and whatever else. Okay, enough about that...

Anyway, the question is, WHERE does much of Christianity get it's doctrine and methodology regarding and/or dealing with demons?

I mean, when you actually read the Bible there is VERY little to do with demons and/or casting out demons. Certainly not enough, in my mind, to come up with the hundreds and hundreds of books and philosophies dealing with the subject in Christian circles.

I think your question or concern here has merit. It is my impression that modern Christian leaders - pastors, elders in the church, etc - get a bit too "trigger" happy and label any major (and sometimes minor) problem with people as demonic influence. As in; the guy is an alcoholic, must be a demon posessed! They then proceed to exorcise the demon, and proclaim it a miracle of God.

The problem with this is you can't prove that they are right or not. It is my contention that it's possible that *some* people might have something bad in them - call it a demon, call it a disorder, whatever; and the fact is, exorcisms as these are proven to cure these, at least on a certain level. There is a certain social and mental power that you are putting yourself into by allowing these people to "exorcise" you - and it can be effective. I'm sure even atheists will agree on this.

I consider what many leaders do it "whoring out" demons. It's like a show or something. It creates something to talk about in the Christian community. Can it happen? Sure; if you believe in God, believing in the supernatural comes with the territory. Does it happen every time? Doubtful. People just get too excited and want to be like Jesus when there was most realistically something more basic or fundamentally wrong with the person. Demonic possessions are a thing of rarity, and if Biblical teachings are taken into account, should be something very unsubtle.

[MikeH]

Okay, as a Christian I was always exposed to people's stories of casting demons out of someone or of having had a demon cast out of them. Well, okay, not always, but it was a common occurence.

I also went through a "deliverance" session once for my pornography addiction (which, many years later, turned out to be due to my body self-medicating its hormonal imbalance). Anyway, during this deliverance session I was told that sometimes demons can manifest themselves (though that was not my case *whew*). I was taken through a pile of ritual and "visualization" exercises and whatever else. Okay, enough about that...

Anyway, the question is, WHERE does much of Christianity get it's doctrine and methodology regarding and/or dealing with demons?

I mean, when you actually read the Bible there is VERY little to do with demons and/or casting out demons. Certainly not enough, in my mind, to come up with the hundreds and hundreds of books and philosophies dealing with the subject in Christian circles.

Saying that EVERY physical ailment or addiction is due to demons is overdoing it, and people do this alot. For example, were you a Christian when this so-called "exorcism" took place? If so, it's ridiculous as a Christian cannot be possessed if they are already "occupied" by Christ. From all of your stories, graphicsguy, it sounds like you were in a misguided, not-so-experienced church.

There are, however, real cases of demon possession, but a Christian cannot be possessed. There's no room.

[graphicsguy]

From all of your stories, graphicsguy, it sounds like you were in a misguided, not-so-experienced church.

Oh, good god...why are you assuming that the church was "misguided"? That is EVERY Christian's excuse for explaining their beliefs.

[WHINY-TONE]"I'm more enlightened than so and so", "my church teaches this, why doesn't yours", "wow, that's horrible, my pastor would never say that", "I'm interpreting scripture correctly and you're not", blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.[/WHINY-TONE]

I am so sick of the finger-pointing and self-righteous double-talk.

[MikeH]

From all of your stories, graphicsguy, it sounds like you were in a misguided, not-so-experienced church.

Oh, good god...why are you assuming that the church was "misguided"? That is EVERY Christian's excuse for explaining their beliefs.

[WHINY-TONE]"I'm more enlightened than so and so", "my church teaches this, why doesn't yours", "wow, that's horrible, my pastor would never say that", "I'm interpreting scripture correctly and you're not", blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.[/WHINY-TONE]

I am so sick of the finger-pointing and self-righteous double-talk.

Sorry if it sounded self-righteous, but if there are misguided people out there, how else can I say they are doing the wrong thing unless I point out that they are misguided? If you're saved, god "lives in you" right? How then, could a demon posses you if you are already filled?

I'm assuming they were misguided because they didn't treat you practically as a person, instead trying to force a "spiritual experience" when a physical one would do just fine.

I myself, was raised in a christian church which taught things I completely disagree with now, even though that was all I knew as a child. You have research everything for yourself, as it is healthy to do so. Let me ask you, if you are offended that I say what they did is misguided, what leads you to believe that they were automatically right?

[Catharsis]

>>the question is, WHERE does much of Christianity get it's doctrine and methodology regarding and/or dealing with demons?<<

Patristic writings, various sacred texts, and testimony of the saints. In short, the methodology on dealing with the demonic spirits can simply be viewed as part of the teachings of the Church or the Ecclesia (mentioned in another thread).


McCulloch said:
>>If demons really exist, as the Bible writers assume, then Christians and others should have had significant first hand experience with them.<<

ALL people, regardless of religion, struggle with satanic forces. The spiritual warfare is carried out through Thought Forms (Logismoi) that constantly assault our hearts and minds. These are the forces that prevent us from experiencing the reality of God.

[seventil]

ALL people, regardless of religion, struggle with satanic forces. The spiritual warfare is carried out through Thought Forms (Logismoi) that constantly assault our hearts and minds. These are the forces that prevent us from experiencing the reality of God.

Interesting. I hadn't heard of "Logismoi" before so I looked it up.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evagrius_Ponticus

The logismoi

The most prominent feature of his research was a system of categorizing various forms of temptation. He developed a comprehensive list of eight evil thoughts (&#955;&#959;&#947;&#953;&#963;&#956;&#959;&#953;&#962;) from which all sinful behavior springs. This list was intended to serve a diagnostic purpose: to help readers identify the process of temptation, their own strengths and weaknesses, and the remedies available for overcoming temptation.

The eight patterns of evil thought are gluttony, lust, greed, sadness, acedia, anger, vainglory, and pride. While he did not create the list from scratch, he certainly refined it. Some years later, Pope Gregory I would revise this list to form the more common Seven Deadly Sins.

On this, where would we draw the line at a "Demonic Force" and all actions that fit into this category? Would every sin be classified as a direct, intentional Demonic Force?