Did Jesus Really Pay The Penalty For Our Sins?

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Did Jesus Really Pay The Penalty For Our Sins?

Post #1

Post by myth-one.com »

Question: Did Jesus Pay The Penalty For Our Sins?

Christians today generally accept that nonbelievers will suffer eternally in the fires of hell for their sins. But if the wages of sin is eternity in hellfire, Jesus did not pay the penalty for our sins. He simply died! Where did we go wrong?

Both testaments of the Bible contain covenants or wills between man and God. The inheritance or reward under either covenant is eternal life. The path to eternal life under the Old Testament was obeying all of God's commandments. That is, you must never sin because the wages of sin is death. However, this meant that no man could inherit eternal life because all men sinned.

What if another person could serve the penalty for our sins? For this to occur that person could not already be under the same judgment. If you are already under a death sentence you cannot substitute your life for a friend who is also on death row. In addition, you must serve out his full sentence. Under the New Testament Jesus suffered our punishment of death so that we could inherit eternal life. The wages of sin is death, but He never sinned. Therefore, His life could be given for ours.

But if humans are born with immortal souls the punishment must be changed since the soul lives forever! The punishment for sinning can no longer be the second death as taught in the scriptures. Thus, it has been changed to eternal punishment in hellfire! But if that is the case Jesus Christ did not pay our penalty! Jesus should presently be burning in hell and should stay there for all eternity since this is the punishment mainstream Christianity assigns to mankind for sinning!

This concept that nonbelievers will burn alive in hellfire eternally and never die, trivializes the death of Jesus Christ! In comparison to what present day theology holds in store for one nonbeliever, Jesus' crucifixion on the cross is a mosquito bite! Being crucified daily for a thousand years is preferable to burning alive for eternity. The true punishment for your sin is the second death which is eternal. You never live again after suffering the second death. It is the death which is eternal not the act and torture of dying by fire!

Jesus did indeed serve our penalty and He was a valid sacrifice since He was innocent of any sin! We can now escape the second death and live forever thanks to His sacrifice. Jesus died a physical death as a human on the cross. Man's second and permanent death is also a physical death. Humans who fulfill the requirement of the New Testament covenant do not suffer the second death since their penalty for sinning has already been paid. That New Testament requirement for inheriting eternal life is believing in Jesus as your Savior:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
Those believing in the immortal soul must interpret perish in John 3:16 to mean something other than death since their soul will never perish! One common erroneous interpretation is that it means "spiritual death" or "eternal separation from God." But if the penalty for sinning is eternal separation from God, then once again Jesus did not serve our punishment! Jesus is not separated from God! He is one third of the Trinity of God!

There are some topics in the Bible which are difficult to understand. This is not one of them! Jesus paid the price for our sins. What are the wages of our sinning? Death! What did Jesus do? He died on the cross. In fact, Jesus Christ is the only human to qualify for eternal life under the Old Testament. That is, the wages of sin is death but He never sinned, so He did not have to die. He laid down His life willingly.

The plan of salvation as designed by God is so incredibly simple! The wages of sin is death and all have sinned and are facing the second death. God sends His Son to earth as a human and Jesus lives a sinless life so He does not have to die. Therefore, He can lay down His life for ours. He willingly dies in our stead for our sins. Humans who accept Jesus as their Savior gain eternal life since Jesus has already paid the price for their sinning. Those who do not accept Jesus as their Savior must pay the penalty for their sinning which is perishing in the second death. The wages of sin is death.

However, man believes he is immortal due to use of the word "soul" in the King James Bible and Satan's lie that, "Ye shall not surely die." Man's new plan of salvation becomes extremely complicated as he designs myths to create new punishments for sinning. The true punishment of death as defined by God is no longer viable because man's "soul" lives forever and cannot die!

But no matter what mythical punishments men create to protect the immortal soul myth, none of them pass one simple and obvious test. Jesus Christ had to pay the full penalty for our sinning in order to become our Savior. He had to serve our full punishment. What did He do? He died! He died! Read it once again, He died! The wages of sin is death, and He died in our place. He is not burning in hell for eternity, He is not eternally separated from God, He did not have to write, "I will not sin" one trillion times, or any other ridiculous punishment! He died. Those who choose not to believe in Jesus must pay their own wages for sinning. Therefore, they die! Can this be any simpler?

If you are a Christian, you will have (future tense) eternal life! However, Christians believing the false theology of the immortal soul will be asked some embarrassing questions upon meeting Jesus face to face! How could they believe that Jesus, who created everything, would create a system whereby one individual would suffer pain and horror for eternity in the fires of hell? What part of "God is love," did they not understand? Here is our Savior who died that we might have eternal life. Yet, shortly after He departs the earth, most are convinced that all mankind is born with eternal life! Here is our Savior who taught nonviolence, turn the other cheek, love your enemies, do good to them that hurt you. Yet, shortly after His departure, most are convinced that His plan is for untold masses of humanity to suffer indescribable pain for eternity! If this was in His plan, why did He not mention it in detail while He was a human on earth? Granted, most of us were taught this false theology from birth. Even so, at some point when we began to reason on our own we should have seen the obvious flaw. Begin now to prepare your answers to these questions which will surely be asked!

Taken by permission from http://www.have-no-fear.com

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Re: Did Jesus Really Pay The Penalty For Our Sins?

Post #2

Post by Vanguard »

myth-one.com wrote:Question: Did Jesus Pay The Penalty For Our Sins?

Christians today generally accept that nonbelievers will suffer eternally in the fires of hell for their sins. But if the wages of sin is eternity in hellfire, Jesus did not pay the penalty for our sins. He simply died! Where did we go wrong?

Both testaments of the Bible contain covenants or wills between man and God. The inheritance or reward under either covenant is eternal life. The path to eternal life under the Old Testament was obeying all of God's commandments. That is, you must never sin because the wages of sin is death. However, this meant that no man could inherit eternal life because all men sinned.

What if another person could serve the penalty for our sins? For this to occur that person could not already be under the same judgment. If you are already under a death sentence you cannot substitute your life for a friend who is also on death row. In addition, you must serve out his full sentence. Under the New Testament Jesus suffered our punishment of death so that we could inherit eternal life. The wages of sin is death, but He never sinned. Therefore, His life could be given for ours.

But if humans are born with immortal souls the punishment must be changed since the soul lives forever! The punishment for sinning can no longer be the second death as taught in the scriptures. Thus, it has been changed to eternal punishment in hellfire! But if that is the case Jesus Christ did not pay our penalty! Jesus should presently be burning in hell and should stay there for all eternity since this is the punishment mainstream Christianity assigns to mankind for sinning!

This concept that nonbelievers will burn alive in hellfire eternally and never die, trivializes the death of Jesus Christ! In comparison to what present day theology holds in store for one nonbeliever, Jesus' crucifixion on the cross is a mosquito bite! Being crucified daily for a thousand years is preferable to burning alive for eternity. The true punishment for your sin is the second death which is eternal. You never live again after suffering the second death. It is the death which is eternal not the act and torture of dying by fire!

Jesus did indeed serve our penalty and He was a valid sacrifice since He was innocent of any sin! We can now escape the second death and live forever thanks to His sacrifice. Jesus died a physical death as a human on the cross. Man's second and permanent death is also a physical death. Humans who fulfill the requirement of the New Testament covenant do not suffer the second death since their penalty for sinning has already been paid. That New Testament requirement for inheriting eternal life is believing in Jesus as your Savior:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
Those believing in the immortal soul must interpret perish in John 3:16 to mean something other than death since their soul will never perish! One common erroneous interpretation is that it means "spiritual death" or "eternal separation from God." But if the penalty for sinning is eternal separation from God, then once again Jesus did not serve our punishment! Jesus is not separated from God! He is one third of the Trinity of God!

There are some topics in the Bible which are difficult to understand. This is not one of them! Jesus paid the price for our sins. What are the wages of our sinning? Death! What did Jesus do? He died on the cross. In fact, Jesus Christ is the only human to qualify for eternal life under the Old Testament. That is, the wages of sin is death but He never sinned, so He did not have to die. He laid down His life willingly.

The plan of salvation as designed by God is so incredibly simple! The wages of sin is death and all have sinned and are facing the second death. God sends His Son to earth as a human and Jesus lives a sinless life so He does not have to die. Therefore, He can lay down His life for ours. He willingly dies in our stead for our sins. Humans who accept Jesus as their Savior gain eternal life since Jesus has already paid the price for their sinning. Those who do not accept Jesus as their Savior must pay the penalty for their sinning which is perishing in the second death. The wages of sin is death.

However, man believes he is immortal due to use of the word "soul" in the King James Bible and Satan's lie that, "Ye shall not surely die." Man's new plan of salvation becomes extremely complicated as he designs myths to create new punishments for sinning. The true punishment of death as defined by God is no longer viable because man's "soul" lives forever and cannot die!

But no matter what mythical punishments men create to protect the immortal soul myth, none of them pass one simple and obvious test. Jesus Christ had to pay the full penalty for our sinning in order to become our Savior. He had to serve our full punishment. What did He do? He died! He died! Read it once again, He died! The wages of sin is death, and He died in our place. He is not burning in hell for eternity, He is not eternally separated from God, He did not have to write, "I will not sin" one trillion times, or any other ridiculous punishment! He died. Those who choose not to believe in Jesus must pay their own wages for sinning. Therefore, they die! Can this be any simpler?

If you are a Christian, you will have (future tense) eternal life! However, Christians believing the false theology of the immortal soul will be asked some embarrassing questions upon meeting Jesus face to face! How could they believe that Jesus, who created everything, would create a system whereby one individual would suffer pain and horror for eternity in the fires of hell? What part of "God is love," did they not understand? Here is our Savior who died that we might have eternal life. Yet, shortly after He departs the earth, most are convinced that all mankind is born with eternal life! Here is our Savior who taught nonviolence, turn the other cheek, love your enemies, do good to them that hurt you. Yet, shortly after His departure, most are convinced that His plan is for untold masses of humanity to suffer indescribable pain for eternity! If this was in His plan, why did He not mention it in detail while He was a human on earth? Granted, most of us were taught this false theology from birth. Even so, at some point when we began to reason on our own we should have seen the obvious flaw. Begin now to prepare your answers to these questions which will surely be asked!

Taken by permission from http://www.have-no-fear.com
Ummmm, myth-one.com, is there a shorter version of what you are saying (you lost me at, hello)? Are all men saved as a result of Christ's atonement or not? :)

twobitsmedia

Re: Did Jesus Really Pay The Penalty For Our Sins?

Post #3

Post by twobitsmedia »

myth-one.com wrote:Question: Did Jesus Pay The Penalty For Our Sins?

Christians today generally accept that nonbelievers will suffer eternally in the fires of hell for their sins. But if the wages of sin is eternity in hellfire, Jesus did not pay the penalty for our sins. He simply died! Where did we go wrong?
I do not undersatnd how you are putting this together and coming up with your conclusion.
Both testaments of the Bible contain covenants or wills between man and God. The inheritance or reward under either covenant is eternal life. The path to eternal life under the Old Testament was obeying all of God's commandments. That is, you must never sin because the wages of sin is death. However, this meant that no man could inherit eternal life because all men sinned
That was the purpose of the sacrifices, the goats and sheep and all that bloody stuff........
What if another person could serve the penalty for our sins? For this to occur that person could not already be under the same judgment. If you are already under a death sentence you cannot substitute your life for a friend who is also on death row. In addition, you must serve out his full sentence. Under the New Testament Jesus suffered our punishment of death so that we could inherit eternal life. The wages of sin is death, but He never sinned. Therefore, His life could be given for ours.
Correct.
But if humans are born with immortal souls the punishment must be changed since the soul lives forever! The punishment for sinning can no longer be the second death as taught in the scriptures. Thus, it has been changed to eternal punishment in hellfire! But if that is the case Jesus Christ did not pay our penalty! Jesus should presently be burning in hell and should stay there for all eternity since this is the punishment mainstream Christianity assigns to mankind for sinning!
I have not been able to locate a scripture that suggests that the wages of sin is hell. The wages of sin is death. The "hell" and "heaven" come into play at judgment after death.

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Shorter version for Vanguard.

Post #4

Post by myth-one.com »

Short version for Vanguard:
...that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
For those born with immortal souls, this verse does not work -- as they cannot perish! But any substitution must mean perish because that is what Jesus did for us. See the conflict?

twobitsmedia

Re: Shorter version for Vanguard.

Post #5

Post by twobitsmedia »

myth-one.com wrote:Short version for Vanguard:
...that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
For those born with immortal souls, this verse does not work -- as they cannot perish! But any substitution must mean perish because that is what Jesus did for us. See the conflict?
You are overlooking the "whosoever believeth in Him" part of the scripture. If that was not there, I would see a conflict.

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Post #6

Post by myth-one.com »

I do not understand your comment. There are two groups, believers and nonbelievers. Whosoever believeth in Him (believers) shall have everlasting life. All others perish. Any English majors out there?????

This conflicts with any idea that man is born with immortality, the soul, for example. The word perish and the word immortal are opposites. Perish does not apply to anything which lives forever! Immortality is the reward of the saved, not something every human is born with. It is our choice to accept or reject.

If perish and immortal soul were complimentary, why would those believing in the immortal soul need to redefine perish in John 3:16?

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Post #7

Post by Vanguard »

myth-one.com wrote:I do not understand your comment. There are two groups, believers and nonbelievers. Whosoever believeth in Him (believers) shall have everlasting life. All others perish. Any English majors out there?????

This conflicts with any idea that man is born with immortality, the soul, for example. The word perish and the word immortal are opposites. Perish does not apply to anything which lives forever! Immortality is the reward of the saved, not something every human is born with. It is our choice to accept or reject.

If perish and immortal soul were complimentary, why would those believing in the immortal soul need to redefine perish in John 3:16?
myth - Don't get too far ahead of yourself. Are you defining "perish" as "ceasing to exist?" I see several different takes on the definition of perish in the dictionary. But then again, I still might not be understanding your point... :-k

Just to sweeten the pot, I believe all will have an opportunity to accept Christ as their Savior whether during this life or after. What say you?

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Post #8

Post by Metatron »

Vanguard wrote:
myth-one.com wrote:I do not understand your comment. There are two groups, believers and nonbelievers. Whosoever believeth in Him (believers) shall have everlasting life. All others perish. Any English majors out there?????

This conflicts with any idea that man is born with immortality, the soul, for example. The word perish and the word immortal are opposites. Perish does not apply to anything which lives forever! Immortality is the reward of the saved, not something every human is born with. It is our choice to accept or reject.

If perish and immortal soul were complimentary, why would those believing in the immortal soul need to redefine perish in John 3:16?
myth - Don't get too far ahead of yourself. Are you defining "perish" as "ceasing to exist?" I see several different takes on the definition of perish in the dictionary. But then again, I still might not be understanding your point... :-k

Just to sweeten the pot, I believe all will have an opportunity to accept Christ as their Savior whether during this life or after. What say you?
Meaning that us heathens get a last shot at the Pearly Gates AFTER we find out whether or not God/Jesus really exists?

Nah!!! That would imply that God was actually the merciful and compassionate deity that Christians claim he is!

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Post #9

Post by Vanguard »

Metatron wrote:
Vanguard wrote:
myth-one.com wrote:I do not understand your comment. There are two groups, believers and nonbelievers. Whosoever believeth in Him (believers) shall have everlasting life. All others perish. Any English majors out there?????

This conflicts with any idea that man is born with immortality, the soul, for example. The word perish and the word immortal are opposites. Perish does not apply to anything which lives forever! Immortality is the reward of the saved, not something every human is born with. It is our choice to accept or reject.

If perish and immortal soul were complimentary, why would those believing in the immortal soul need to redefine perish in John 3:16?
myth - Don't get too far ahead of yourself. Are you defining "perish" as "ceasing to exist?" I see several different takes on the definition of perish in the dictionary. But then again, I still might not be understanding your point... :-k

Just to sweeten the pot, I believe all will have an opportunity to accept Christ as their Savior whether during this life or after. What say you?
Meaning that us heathens get a last shot at the Pearly Gates AFTER we find out whether or not God/Jesus really exists?

Nah!!! That would imply that God was actually the merciful and compassionate deity that Christians claim he is!
Actually Meta- As you seem to suggest, I too believe it would be kinda' silly to allow acceptance of the Savior once everyone "knows the rules or the game". IMO, the criteria never really was about a mere, verbal recognition that Jesus is Savior. Rather, the criteria is about stretching toward one's capacity as much & as often as one can in this life - honoring the "counsel of one's conscience" in mortality. For those who accomplish this, acceptance of the Savior as the source of this counsel will be a natural consequence whether it happens in this life or otherwise.

It is this point where I diverge from many a Christian perspective. One perspective would tell you that unless you literally proclaim Jesus as Savior in this life you will indeed "perish" (as myth-one seems to believe?). The other perspective would tell mankind to behave as morally as they are capable thereby allowing the Savior's sacrifice to "fill in the gap" as it were. I'll take the latter... ;)

By the way, there is no such thing as a "heathen" in my book, that is, unless we all are considered such. :)

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Post #10

Post by Metatron »

Vanguard wrote:
Metatron wrote:
Vanguard wrote:
myth-one.com wrote:I do not understand your comment. There are two groups, believers and nonbelievers. Whosoever believeth in Him (believers) shall have everlasting life. All others perish. Any English majors out there?????

This conflicts with any idea that man is born with immortality, the soul, for example. The word perish and the word immortal are opposites. Perish does not apply to anything which lives forever! Immortality is the reward of the saved, not something every human is born with. It is our choice to accept or reject.

If perish and immortal soul were complimentary, why would those believing in the immortal soul need to redefine perish in John 3:16?
myth - Don't get too far ahead of yourself. Are you defining "perish" as "ceasing to exist?" I see several different takes on the definition of perish in the dictionary. But then again, I still might not be understanding your point... :-k

Just to sweeten the pot, I believe all will have an opportunity to accept Christ as their Savior whether during this life or after. What say you?
Meaning that us heathens get a last shot at the Pearly Gates AFTER we find out whether or not God/Jesus really exists?

Nah!!! That would imply that God was actually the merciful and compassionate deity that Christians claim he is!
Actually Meta- As you seem to suggest, I too believe it would be kinda' silly to allow acceptance of the Savior once everyone "knows the rules or the game". IMO, the criteria never really was about a mere, verbal recognition that Jesus is Savior. Rather, the criteria is about stretching toward one's capacity as much & as often as one can in this life - honoring the "counsel of one's conscience" in mortality. For those who accomplish this, acceptance of the Savior as the source of this counsel will be a natural consequence whether it happens in this life or otherwise.

It is this point where I diverge from many a Christian perspective. One perspective would tell you that unless you literally proclaim Jesus as Savior in this life you will indeed "perish" (as myth-one seems to believe?). The other perspective would tell mankind to behave as morally as they are capable thereby allowing the Savior's sacrifice to "fill in the gap" as it were. I'll take the latter... ;)

By the way, there is no such thing as a "heathen" in my book, that is, unless we all are considered such. :)
So does that mean that you believe that a person who leads a moral/ethical life but does not succeed in making the leap of faith to Christ or who believes in another religion may be offered salvation?

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