In God we trust

[Udanor]

who is God an the US?

Last time I was in America (that was after 9/11) I went to a church meting.
It started out worshipping the Lord, after that the people preaching started to talk about how great the United States of America was.

They talked about how great America was compared to the rest of the world.
How we only do the right things and never makes mistakes
After a wile they basically started praising the flag and "for which it stands".
They said they were "patriotic".....

I have seen a lot of christian people that do the same thing...

I did not stand to "The Star Spangled Banner" that time. I just didn't think it was right to worship anyone but God.


My question is this... am i right?.... do we tend to be to "patriotic"?
(the reason I say "we" is because I am an American citizen, but i live in sweden)
or am I wrong to bring this up?

[McCulloch]

I have often thought that some Americans attitude towards their flag is pretty close to idolatry.

[Udanor]

I would think this has something to do with...

You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make for yourself an idol...

does anyone else have an opinion.... any American

[Confused]

I think you both missed the point. The flag is not a religious symbol. It is a symbol of pride. It stands for what Americans went through to gain the independence they now have.

Were you wrong not to stand for it. Yes. Why, because it is disrespectful. No one was asking you to worship it in place of a God. It is simply a recognition of those who died to make this country free. Though in the anthem it says "One nation, under God, indivisible........" it isn't worshipping the flag. It is recognizing what the flag represents.

McCulloch: Perhaps you consider it close to idolatry, but it isn't. There is no religious connotation associated with the flag. At one time, there might have been since the country was settled by religious factions. But as it is today, it is a symbol of pride. Period. Are you not proud of your Canadian banner? Is it not a part of your avatar? Are you not proud of your national anthem? Would you not be offended if during your anthem, some foreigner didn't even have the respect to stand for it. No one would expect him to know the words, or even what it means, but to simply ignore it as a visitor to your country. I think that is wrong.

Udanor: You may have been born in the US, but you are now Swedish. Correct? Do you have no national pride?

[Udanor]

Udanor: You may have been born in the US, but you are now Swedish. Correct? Do you have no national pride?

I was born in sweden and am now an American..
National pride?.... no
I don't belive in any country to be better then another...

I think you both missed the point. The flag is not a religious symbol. It is a symbol of pride. It stands for what Americans went through to gain the independence they now have.

Perhaps you are right.... I am sorry for bringing this up....

[Confused]

Udanor: You may have been born in the US, but you are now Swedish. Correct? Do you have no national pride?

I was born in sweden and am now an American..
National pride?.... no
I don't belive in any country to be better then another...

I think you both missed the point. The flag is not a religious symbol. It is a symbol of pride. It stands for what Americans went through to gain the independence they now have.

Perhaps you are right.... I am sorry for bringing this up....

Sorry for mixing up your heritage.

Michelle

[McCulloch]

Perhaps you consider it close to idolatry, but it isn't. There is no religious connotation associated with the flag. At one time, there might have been since the country was settled by religious factions. But as it is today, it is a symbol of pride. Period.

You are a reasonable person. But to some there seems to be a form of mysticism attached to the flag. I must be folded a certain way; I must never touch the ground. It is to be revered.

Are you not proud of your Canadian banner? Is it not a part of your avatar?

The Maple Leaf symbol from our flag is on my avatar. I am Canadian.

Are you not proud of your national anthem?

Actually, no. It has a lousy melody and the words repeat way to much and say very little. And I don't understand the French ones.

Would you not be offended if during your anthem, some foreigner didn't even have the respect to stand for it.

No. Should I?

No one would expect him to know the words, or even what it means, but to simply ignore it as a visitor to your country. I think that is wrong.

It, like the flag, is a symbol of our country. I have a logo that is the symbol of the firm I work for. There is a crest that is a symbol of my family. Why should I be particularly proud? My family has not distinguished itself greatly. My country is a good country, but there must be other good countries too. The company I work for is a good employer. I am sure that its competitors are better and worse.

[Confused]

Perhaps you consider it close to idolatry, but it isn't. There is no religious connotation associated with the flag. At one time, there might have been since the country was settled by religious factions. But as it is today, it is a symbol of pride. Period.

You are a reasonable person. But to some there seems to be a form of mysticism attached to the flag. I must be folded a certain way; I must never touch the ground. It is to be revered.

Are you not proud of your Canadian banner? Is it not a part of your avatar?

The Maple Leaf symbol from our flag is on my avatar. I am Canadian.

Are you not proud of your national anthem?

Actually, no. It has a lousy melody and the words repeat way to much and say very little. And I don't understand the French ones.

Would you not be offended if during your anthem, some foreigner didn't even have the respect to stand for it.

No. Should I?

No one would expect him to know the words, or even what it means, but to simply ignore it as a visitor to your country. I think that is wrong.

It, like the flag, is a symbol of our country. I have a logo that is the symbol of the firm I work for. There is a crest that is a symbol of my family. Why should I be particularly proud? My family has not distinguished itself greatly. My country is a good country, but there must be other good countries too. The company I work for is a good employer. I am sure that its competitors are better and worse.

The folding of it and all the "ritualistic properites" are military. They are used in basic training (boot camp) to teach discipline and respect of the flag that represents America and to respect those who have died for it. Very few people outside of the military consider it mystical if it should touch the ground. Though I don't agree with the Supreme Court ruling, it is because of it that the "revered" portion of your remark is invalid. The court ruled it wasnt' unconstitutional to burn the flag and many have done so. To me, burning it or disrespecting it is disrespecting the memory of those who died to make America free. They are quick to criticize this country yet remain in it. Why? Anyways, that is irrelevant. The fact remains, it represents the pride of a nation, not the puritans that were the first "settlers".

I assume since your avatar is from your Canadian flag, that you hold a certain amount of respect for your country and it's flag that represents it. But can you really compare its meaning with that of the logo of your company? Your flag represents your nation, for all its good and bad. It represents the best and the worst of your nation. In the US, it also represents the respect of those who died to make it possible for our flag to exist.

I am sorry to hear about your nation anthem. Personally, ours pisses me off because people butcher the high note segment of it. But still get goosebumps hearing it because I know how many people lost their lives to give me the freedom I now enjoy.

In regards to standing: I see it as a sign of respect. You are a visitor to that country, you should show respect while in it. Just as I beleive that if you are to travel to another country, you should at least know the basics of the culture and language so as to not accidently show disrespect by doing something that that country may consider taboo. My mother always said that when her and my dad travelled (before he became a jerk) she would have to learn the basics of the language before going so as to show that Americans aren't so high of themselves that they expect everyone else to know English so as to make it more convenient for them.

[Noachian]

I see what you mean........it is not just Americans (alough in resant years they have seemed alittle to patriotic).....in middle age Britain it was basically worship the Monarch (I know because I am British)......what ever the Monarch said in the middle ages.....was law and hericy to deffy it.... alough now I am in much favor for our Queen ( I think She's sweet).

[MagusYanam]

Being an Episcopalian I have a good deal of esteem for the Crown of England, and for the Queen herself (she strikes me as a decent sort, though England's had some real bastards on the throne... no offence, Guillaume).

I believe that it is far better to be cosmopolitan in one's outlook than patriotic (though maybe that's the German in me talking). Was Udanor wrong not to have stood? I don't think so, though perhaps it was not the most politic thing to have done in the situation. Why not? Because the United States is a state, and states have no intrinsic value. People have intrinsic value, and states value only insofar as they care for the dignities of people. Even if it were true that the people who died creating the United States were dying for the sake of our freedom, I would still see the flag as a symbol and nothing more.

The national anthem I find amusingly ironic - it's trumpeted as an anthem of freedom, even though it was written during a war against what was then the most free country in the world, and in which we were supporting the world's first modern dictator.