Is there any accurate exegetical verses which would debunk some if not all the 5 points of Calvinism? or the 5 Points of Arminianism?
I personally abandoned the Arminian view over a year ago, and I say that so to be honest.
I hope this will be a good long discussion
For those who do not know the 5 points are here:
Calvinism
T - Total Depravity (Man cannot of himself respond to the gospel/he is dead in sin)
U -Unconditional Election - God has chosen some unto salvation not based on anything we have done including knowledge of foreknown events
L - Limited Atonement - (Also known as Particular Redemption) That Christ died only for the one's he has chosen. Not for every person that ever lived or will live
I - Irresistible Grace- God's saving work in someone cannot be resisted but that such grace will result in salvation
P - Perseverance of the Sains- (also known as Eternal Security) Those who are born again can never lose their salvation
Arminianism
1)Partial Depravity - Man is able to respond to the gospel on his own and that he is not dead spiritually but rather sick
2)Conditional Election - God chooses those who he foresaw would choose him/or generate their own faith/ or would be a good candidate (There are different views in Arminianism to this)
3)Unlimited Atonement- Christ died for every single person that ever lived or will live
4)Resistable Grace- God is unable to bring someone to salvation who is unwilling to be saved
5)*Eternal Security* This point is divided among Arminians. Some say God only chooses those he knows will never fall away hence Eternal Security, or that those who willingly choose God, God in return chooses them and will never let them go. Still others deny this point; and lastly Arminius' followers were not certain about it. (Arminius believed in Eternal Security) [/b]
Calvinism Vs Arminianism
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McCulloch
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Post #2
Some territory regarding the fifth point has been covered in Once saved, always saved?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
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franknhonest
arminianism
Post #3In my view Arminianism is Humanism dressed up as religion. You wont find it in the Bible unless you like twisting verses all the time.
So many Christians believe they have a "free will". Yet the Bible clearly teaches that God draws his chosen people to himself (John 6) and that none of his people will be lost.
If someone made a "right decision", it only happened because God enabled it. So a verse which supposedly teaches "free will" doesn't really, when you think about it.
So many Christians believe they have a "free will". Yet the Bible clearly teaches that God draws his chosen people to himself (John 6) and that none of his people will be lost.
If someone made a "right decision", it only happened because God enabled it. So a verse which supposedly teaches "free will" doesn't really, when you think about it.
Post #9
"Love God with all your heart..."
Can you tell me what love is if it is not given freely? Can it be love?
If love must be freely given, then how are we to love God without free will?
Isn't it necesssary to be able to choose NOT to love God for the act of loving God to mean anything?
If we have free will and can choose to love God or not, aren't we by definition able to walk away from salvation?
Why are there so many places in the Bible like John 2:2 “He is the propitiation for our sins: and not ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” if Jesus died for only a few?
The problem with the Calvinist argument seems to be that if the saved have always been saved, cannot resist being saved, and can never be unsaved, and the unsaved have always been unsaved, and cannot be saved, then what is the point of any human being believing or not believing, or in any way modifying his beliefs or behavior?
Indeed, this presents a very convenient view of salvation for the Calvinist. How are we to know whether someone has always been one of the chosen? Because they will be saved, and therefor they will profess Christianity by word and action. How do we know when someone has always been unsaved, that is, predestined never to be saved? By the fact that either they never profess Christianity or that they renounce it by word or action.
A short parable might illustrate my point: Two farmers are in the habit of sharing a chicken coop. One night as both flocks of chickens are asleep in the coop, a weasel enters and kills half the chickens.
In the morning one farmers asks the other, "Can you identify which chickens are yours? "
" Surely!", replied the second farmer. "The ones that are alive are mine."
How convenient that when a believer falls away the Calvinist can point to him and say, "He was never one of the chosen after all."
This leads to the curious situation wherein if I at some point go through the motions or rituals of Christianity, as long as I continue to profess faith and do good works I can appear to be saved. I can even pretend to myself that as long as I profess faith and do good works I am saved.
On the other hand, Arminism holds that salvation is a gift which can be refused, and once accepted, can yet be abandoned or lost. Thus, going through the motions and rituals is not enough. Salvation can be accepted by anyone, or rejected by anyone even after having once accepted it.
Can you tell me what love is if it is not given freely? Can it be love?
If love must be freely given, then how are we to love God without free will?
Isn't it necesssary to be able to choose NOT to love God for the act of loving God to mean anything?
If we have free will and can choose to love God or not, aren't we by definition able to walk away from salvation?
Why are there so many places in the Bible like John 2:2 “He is the propitiation for our sins: and not ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” if Jesus died for only a few?
The problem with the Calvinist argument seems to be that if the saved have always been saved, cannot resist being saved, and can never be unsaved, and the unsaved have always been unsaved, and cannot be saved, then what is the point of any human being believing or not believing, or in any way modifying his beliefs or behavior?
Indeed, this presents a very convenient view of salvation for the Calvinist. How are we to know whether someone has always been one of the chosen? Because they will be saved, and therefor they will profess Christianity by word and action. How do we know when someone has always been unsaved, that is, predestined never to be saved? By the fact that either they never profess Christianity or that they renounce it by word or action.
A short parable might illustrate my point: Two farmers are in the habit of sharing a chicken coop. One night as both flocks of chickens are asleep in the coop, a weasel enters and kills half the chickens.
In the morning one farmers asks the other, "Can you identify which chickens are yours? "
" Surely!", replied the second farmer. "The ones that are alive are mine."
How convenient that when a believer falls away the Calvinist can point to him and say, "He was never one of the chosen after all."
This leads to the curious situation wherein if I at some point go through the motions or rituals of Christianity, as long as I continue to profess faith and do good works I can appear to be saved. I can even pretend to myself that as long as I profess faith and do good works I am saved.
On the other hand, Arminism holds that salvation is a gift which can be refused, and once accepted, can yet be abandoned or lost. Thus, going through the motions and rituals is not enough. Salvation can be accepted by anyone, or rejected by anyone even after having once accepted it.
Zeke
Post #10
Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
I subscribe to arminian theology. The above verse in revelation is an eye opener. There is a condition attach, that being, if one overcomes … then … I will not blot out his name out of the book of life …
From Genesis to Revelation man is exhorted to make the right choices. Man is master of his own destiny through the free will choices he makes.
1 Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels turned against God. Does God create precious life and turns that precious life against Himself so that He has no choice but to send that precious, beautiful life into the fires of hell ? If you believe this is so, then, excuse me, you must be a lunatic. Would you as a parent want your child to turn against you ?
2 Look at adam. 2 options were before adam – (1) Father’s command not to eat the fruit of the tree (2) satan’s deception to eat and know good and evil. Adam had 2 choices. He chose to disobey. Is this free will or not.
3 Next, look at farmer Cain + shephard Abel. God loves abel more than cain b/c abel obeys God by offering God animal sacrifice while cain, the produce of the land [Ge 4:3-4]. Instead of blaming himself, cain continued in sin. He became jealous of abel and killed him. God cursed cain. So we see how we, too, can make the same mistakes and get deeper into sin with every thought and act.
4 Test : all christians will be tested, to prove our worth. Whoever pass the test, ‘He that overcometh …’ gets his name written in the book of life. All of us must go through hardship of one sort or another. God is fair and just.
4.1 Remember Abraham, how he was tested with his own precious boy, isaac. Abraham had a choice. His love for son or his love for God. Which will He put FIRST.
4.2 Remember Job, what a horrible test. Job had to choose between blaming God for all the bad in his life or to hold on fast to his faith in God and give Him glory for good as well as bad in his life.
So don’t tell me God pre-elected Abraham and Job. I see very clearly how they wrestle with their choices and emerge righteous.
5 Pre-election : The NT enunciates clearly that Christ died for all not some. Yet, audaciously, some preach that Christ died for them only. This brings me to my next point that I find in christianity … many false Christs … that the bible warn us of. A Christ who died for some [false teaching] versus a Christ who died for the whole world [truth]. The islamic jesus didn’t even die on a cross. The jews believe that they, too, are so special and we know how wrong they are … don’t we. False doctrine does not save. Warning ! When you believe in a false Christ, means believing in a false teaching. In practice, what happens is you develop a mental relationship with a counterfeit Christ. The truth will set you free. But a false Christ will eventually darken your mind and turn your life upside down. Yet, … you believe you’re …. eternally saved … don’t wait till you go to hell to find out the truth.
I subscribe to arminian theology. The above verse in revelation is an eye opener. There is a condition attach, that being, if one overcomes … then … I will not blot out his name out of the book of life …
From Genesis to Revelation man is exhorted to make the right choices. Man is master of his own destiny through the free will choices he makes.
1 Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels turned against God. Does God create precious life and turns that precious life against Himself so that He has no choice but to send that precious, beautiful life into the fires of hell ? If you believe this is so, then, excuse me, you must be a lunatic. Would you as a parent want your child to turn against you ?
2 Look at adam. 2 options were before adam – (1) Father’s command not to eat the fruit of the tree (2) satan’s deception to eat and know good and evil. Adam had 2 choices. He chose to disobey. Is this free will or not.
3 Next, look at farmer Cain + shephard Abel. God loves abel more than cain b/c abel obeys God by offering God animal sacrifice while cain, the produce of the land [Ge 4:3-4]. Instead of blaming himself, cain continued in sin. He became jealous of abel and killed him. God cursed cain. So we see how we, too, can make the same mistakes and get deeper into sin with every thought and act.
4 Test : all christians will be tested, to prove our worth. Whoever pass the test, ‘He that overcometh …’ gets his name written in the book of life. All of us must go through hardship of one sort or another. God is fair and just.
4.1 Remember Abraham, how he was tested with his own precious boy, isaac. Abraham had a choice. His love for son or his love for God. Which will He put FIRST.
4.2 Remember Job, what a horrible test. Job had to choose between blaming God for all the bad in his life or to hold on fast to his faith in God and give Him glory for good as well as bad in his life.
So don’t tell me God pre-elected Abraham and Job. I see very clearly how they wrestle with their choices and emerge righteous.
5 Pre-election : The NT enunciates clearly that Christ died for all not some. Yet, audaciously, some preach that Christ died for them only. This brings me to my next point that I find in christianity … many false Christs … that the bible warn us of. A Christ who died for some [false teaching] versus a Christ who died for the whole world [truth]. The islamic jesus didn’t even die on a cross. The jews believe that they, too, are so special and we know how wrong they are … don’t we. False doctrine does not save. Warning ! When you believe in a false Christ, means believing in a false teaching. In practice, what happens is you develop a mental relationship with a counterfeit Christ. The truth will set you free. But a false Christ will eventually darken your mind and turn your life upside down. Yet, … you believe you’re …. eternally saved … don’t wait till you go to hell to find out the truth.
