Free will & destiny

[Menotu]

Can both Free Will and Destiny exist at the same time?

If so, how?

If not, why not?

Within Christianity, which exists?
Some say everyone has free will, but looking back at the biblical stories, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Someone had to fall to temptation and eat the apple; someone had to betray Jesus.
Where those people acting on free will, or were they forced to play their part in the grand plan?
If they had free will, surely God knew what they would do and had to plan accordingly?
Or does his plan supersede all human understanding?
And if that's the case, how are we to understand anything about him?

[JehovahsWitness]

Can both Free Will and Destiny exist at the same time?

I can't see why not.

DESTINY

The events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future.

Biblically speaking we are free moral agents and we fix our own destiny by the decisions we make. For example if a man chose to jump off a high cliff he is destined to fall to his death. Biblically, if one decides to defy the creator one is destined for everlasting death (non-existence).

DEUTERONOMY 30:19 NIV

I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

JW

To learn more go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE and ... RESPONSIBILITY

[Adstar]

[Replying to post 1 by Menotu]

Yes both can and do exist together..

We have free will within our own existence.. In our universe time line existence..

God on the other hand exists outside of the universe and it's time line and can see all out times from His existence.. So to God all universe history has been observed and thus He foreknew our entire lives at the very start of creation and thus can know our eternal destiny..

But God foreknowing our eternal destiny does not mean He forces us or creates us as Zombie like beings only able to made a pre-programed choice.. We have our own free will within the time lines we traverse in our lives in this universe.. We are responsible for the decisions / responses we make in regard to life and the revelations of God to us..

Now to the atheist mind it is probably impossible for free will to exist with destiny.. Probably because they cannot think of an existence outside and totally independent, unguarded to our universe existence..

[2timothy316]

Define time. Is it linear like a a movie on some recorded media? Where one can fast forward and rewind? Or is all that exist is this very moment and then once that moment passes, it's gone forever?

We think of time as it passing because of our memories recording what we experience. Yet there is no evidence that what happened in the past still exists out side of memory. There is no memory of the future so how can the future exist before it happens? We can move around in space but we can't move around in time and I don't think we can be so small minded as to think that time is a prerecorded movie.

So that is why I ask, what is time? We can't even really answer what freewill is or destiny until we define time and how it works with the universe and everything that is in it.

[2timothy316]

God on the other hand exists outside of the universe and it's time line and can see all out times from His existence.. So to God all universe history has been observed and thus He foreknew our entire lives at the very start of creation and thus can know our eternal destiny..

Question: All of the wicked people that have ever lived and all of the wicked things ever done, before the existance of these people and the universe itself where did all of these wicked people's action exist?

[2timothy316]

Someone had to fall to temptation and eat the apple;

There is no Bible prophecy that says that someone had to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad.

someone had to betray Jesus.

Yes but not from the stand point of God. This was the will of Satan. In the Bible, using a person close to the victim in a betrayal was not something new. In other words, Judas was not the first time a spiritually weak person was used to betray another of God's loyal friends. Absalom, one of King David's own sons betrayed him. There are other Biblical examples. Cain and Able, Samson and Delilah, Moses and Korah. So when God foretold of the betrayal of Jesus was not God making sure Jesus was betrayed but that Jehovah God knew Satan's tactics. Judas filled those traitorous shoes himself, becoming a pawn in Satan's game for the love of money. Judas could have resisted by riding himself of greed. What if Judas resisted? Satan would have picked another target as Jesus had many followers. Sadly, there is no shortage of weak willed people on the Earth so Satan has plenty of 'resources' so to speak. The Bible says to "be watchful" because Satan is, "a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone.� (1 Pe 5:8)

[PinSeeker]

Can both Free Will and Destiny exist at the same time?

Absolutely, and they do.

If so, how?

One's free will will always follow -- sooner or later -- his/her heart, his/her true nature. In the context of God's salvation, it is the heart that is inclined toward God (made alive, or quickened, as it were, according to God's will and by His Spirit) or not (dead in sin). If one remains dead, he/she will never come to God, because he/she is not driven to do so by is heart/nature. If one is given new life in the spirit by the Spirit, he/she will not fail at some point make the free will decision in his/her life to come to God, because he/she will not be able to deny himself/herself, or his/her heart/nature. Man's free will is never trampled upon in any way.

In understanding this, whether one falls on one side of the fence or the other, he/she may have at least a somewhat visceral reaction to it. If so, well, join the club. Whatever the case for any one person, though, in answer, though, Paul, referring extensively to the Old Testament, says:

• "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?' On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?" [Romans 9:19-22]

Some -- many, actually -- see the unspeakable magnificence of it.

Grace and peace to you, Menotu.

[PinSeeker]

Question: All of the wicked people that have ever lived and all of the wicked things ever done, before the existance of these people and the universe itself where did all of these wicked people's action exist?

Irrelvant (with all due respect). God placed Adam on earth as the federal head -- so representative -- of the entire human (merely human, of him, and not of God) race.

Though no mere human yet existed beyond Adam (and Eve), they -- and we all, as abhorrent as that may superficially seem -- were represented by Adam in the Garden of Eden. When Adam fell, the entire human race... all mere humans to come,,, fell with him and became subject to the same all-encompassing condition.

Thus the need for God Himself -- according to the Father's loving will, the Son's loving act of redemption on the cross, and the Spirit's loving, life-giving deed of spiritual rebirth -- to bring those of His choosing (His Elect) from dust to glory.

Grace and peace to all.

[Checkpoint]

God on the other hand exists outside of the universe and it's time line and can see all out times from His existence.. So to God all universe history has been observed and thus He foreknew our entire lives at the very start of creation and thus can know our eternal destiny..

Question: All of the wicked people that have ever lived and all of the wicked things ever done, before the existance of these people and the universe itself where did all of these wicked people's action exist?

That is a long question!

Sorry, but I cannot understand what you are asking in the second part (from "before" onwards).

Could you please make it more clear or put it another way.

Thanks.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 5 by 2timothy316]


It is a long question and I dont think Adstar is speaking about predestination but of foreknowledge which isn't the same thing. Still it is a good question for those that believe God predestined people to be either wicked or good. I think the answer would be, (at least from the predestination camp **IF ** they thought things through to its logical conclusion)... all those evil acts would exist in God.

It would be there, in the mind of God that that every evil act would begin. It would be in him that they originated, and stayed in him until he saw fit to create someone to carry them out. All evil acts would begin in Gods mind and all evil acts, from the horrific tortures of the middle ages to the children being raped some dark corner as we speak, would first have been imagined in the mind of God prior to his creating someone destined to carry them out.

JW