Is a fear of Satan irrational?

[Diagoras]

“The Devil made me do it� is a well-known phrase that people often associate with movies and courtrooms. The idea that Satan (the Devil, Lucifer, etc.) somehow has the power to possess people, and direct or persuade them to act against their own will and against the will of God.

The contention here is: it’s not made especially clear in the Bible what powers Satan possesses. To then ascribe him powers of directing people to evil acts, and of being constantly on the lookout for ways to ‘turn’ people away from God suggests a near-omnipotent, omniscient entity. Yet, the few details about him that we can glean from the Bible don’t seem to support that picture.

Therefore, are those who fear Satan being irrational, as they cannot know with certainty whether he possesses enough power to harm them?

I can easily predict the non-theist’s answer, but am genuinely curious to hear theist arguments for or against. Hence posting in this forum rather than C&A to hopefully reach more Christian views and learn from them.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Diagoras]

True Christians don't fear Satan... we HATE him! (Gen 3:15).

That's not to say we underestimate his power and influence, any human facing Satan alone would lose every time, but we believe we have Almighty YHWH (Jehovah) on our side so there is absolutely no reason to fear Satan, his demons or his human agents.


JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, SATAN THE DEVIL and ...THE ORIGINAL SIN

[2timothy316]

I do not fear Satan.

I fear my weaknesses though. Just as Paul feared that his weaknesses would over take him somehow. (1 Cor 9:27)

This is how sin comes to completion. It's not the Devil that makes a person do it.

"But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death." - James 1:14, 15

Like my friend JW before me said, that doesn't mean we should underestimate Satan the Devil. He watches us closely and finds the desires we are feeding ourselves and will most certainly put something in our path that if we follow it all of the way through, would lead us to an act of worship to him. (2 Cor 11:3)

[Diagoras]

Thank you both.

You both caution about underestimating Satan. Could you expand upon that idea a bit further, i.e. describe some of his powers or actions that might not be obvious from a less knowledgeable Bible reader?

[Checkpoint]

Satan the devil [Replying to post 1 by Diagoras]

The contention here is: it’s not made especially clear in the Bible what powers Satan possesses. To then ascribe him powers of directing people to evil acts, and of being constantly on the lookout for ways to ‘turn’ people away from God suggests a near-omnipotent, omniscient entity. Yet, the few details about him that we can glean from the Bible don’t seem to support that picture.

Satan the devil is not to be feared, but is to be resisted.

1 Peter 5:

8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
9 Resist him, standing firm in your faith

James 4:7

Be subject, therefore, to God. But resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

[Diagoras]

[Replying to post 5 by Checkpoint]
Thanks, Checkpoint. Would you consider the James 4:7 passage to be consistent with 2timothy316’s point about the Devil “putting something in our path�? Where I’m trying to get to is an understanding of whether the Devil’s power is understood to be limited to this kind of ‘offering temptation’, or whether there’s more to it than that (as hinted by people’s caution about underestimating him)?

My understanding of your other quote from Peter is that the ‘prowling lion’ reference is simply an appropriate simile - a literary device. It’s not clear, however, whether the ‘devouring’ part is part of the same simile or not. Could the Devil ‘devour’ someone? Perhaps spiritually-speaking? If so, that suggests greater power than being merely a ‘tempter’.

[JehovahsWitness]

Thank you both.

You both caution about underestimating Satan. Could you expand upon that idea a bit further, i.e. describe some of his powers or actions that might not be obvious from a less knowledgeable Bible reader?

Angels are superior lifeforms to humans, they are emensely powerful, superior in intelligence and invisible to humans. Satan and the demons are rebellious angels. Satan is described as the god of this world. The bible indicates he controls the entire system of things (ie the commercial, religious and political systems of this world) and can manipulate them to his aims. Think of the power of then richest moguls whose incomes outstrip most countries, the highest ranking general who with the push of a button can kill millions, the most powerful President of the most powerful nations on earth.... then picture them all as puppets whose strings are ultimately pulled by someone more powerful than them all combined. You then begin to get an idea of the powers of the evil one.

The book of Job illustrates what they are capable of. He influenced a group of humans to steal his property, provoked a "natural desater" that killed Jobs children, and Satan struck Job with a loathsome disease. If Jehovah hadn't set a limit he (Satan) would have no doubt killed him (Job) without breaking a sweat.

JW




POWERS

Is SATAN omniscience and omnipresent?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 009#848009

Why is Satan called "The God of this world"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 623#901623

Grand puppeteer
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 093#900093

Can Satan (and the demons) just pretend to be good?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 001#828001

Go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, SATAN THE DEVIL and ...THE ORIGINAL SIN

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 5 by Checkpoint]

Thanks, Checkpoint. Would you consider the James 4:7 passage to be consistent with 2timothy316’s point about the Devil “putting something in our path�? Where I’m trying to get to is an understanding of whether the Devil’s power is understood to be limited to this kind of ‘offering temptation’, or whether there’s more to it than that (as hinted by people’s caution about underestimating him)?

My understanding of your other quote from Peter is that the ‘prowling lion’ reference is simply an appropriate simile - a literary device. It’s not clear, however, whether the ‘devouring’ part is part of the same simile or not. Could the Devil ‘devour’ someone? Perhaps spiritually-speaking? If so, that suggests greater power than being merely a ‘tempter’.

I have a suggestion for you to consider.

We believers represent, under Jesus, the kingdom of light, as God's ambassadors, and the devil and his minions represent the dominion of darkness. See Colossians 1:13 and Acts 26:18.

There is thus a battle going on, but the two are so very far from being equals.

Satan the devil is a defeated foe, and that is what every believer needs to firmly grasp, and respond to his wiles accordingly.

We are followers and disciples of Jesus, aren't we?

What did he do when faced by demons and their evil works?

[William]

[Replying to post 1 ]

Diagoras: Is a fear of Satan irrational?

William: Perhaps.

Diagoras: Does the Bible portray his powers accurately?

William: Again, perhaps.

Diagoras: “The Devil made me do it� is a well-known phrase that people often associate with movies and courtrooms. The idea that Satan (the Devil, Lucifer, etc.) somehow has the power to possess people, and direct or persuade them to act against their own will and against the will of God.

William: That is certainly popularized through movies which portray human beliefs through that medium, perhaps often elaborating on the myths and rumors.

An interesting fact is that the name "Jesus" and the name "Lucifer" both add up to the same value.
You can fact-check that here. → Calculate a word's value

Diagoras: The contention here is: it’s not made especially clear in the Bible what powers Satan possesses. To then ascribe him powers of directing people to evil acts, and of being constantly on the lookout for ways to ‘turn’ people away from God suggests a near-omnipotent, omniscient entity. Yet, the few details about him that we can glean from the Bible don’t seem to support that picture.

William: The character evolved.
Generally YHVH (Jehovah) was known to be the only real GOD who dished out both good and evil upon Humans.
Thus YHVH was both "God" and "Devil", depending on whether one was being blessed or cursed by Him.

Diagoras: Therefore, are those who fear Satan being irrational, as they cannot know with certainty whether he possesses enough power to harm them?

William: Without an adversary, what is Christianity? Satan, in Jewish Lore, is the one who accuses. The accusations appear to be hurled at both YHVH and His creations...especially Humans.

If YHVH is indeed, also Satan, then this would amount to Satan being the manifestation of Self Doubt.
However, some stories portray Satan as a separate entity from YHVH, in that Satan accuses someone Loyal to YHVH and YHVH does not doubt the accused one's loyalty and is happy to put the individual to the test to have it shown that Satan is mistaken.

If Satan is an aspect of the entity YHVH... - the dark side as it were - then we have within the mythology a Creator-GOD who is working through His issues, and those issues are personified as different and conflicting entities.

In the story of Job, 'harm' was still allowed to occur to the faithful, but it was not fear of Satan but rather fear of YHVH which eventually healed the harm and replaced the ruin with reward.

Personally, I think fear of Satan is as irrational as fear of YHVH, but allow that the onus is upon the individual to discover that for themselves, and fear no evil, however it is presented.

For me, the process includes - learning not to be judgmental and moving from a state of duplicity into one of acceptance.

Fear - of either Gods or Devils, then becomes a remnant imprint which is worthless to continue engaging with. Perhaps even detrimentally so...

[center]Watch-Be Aware-Satan-Trap-Less-Able To-Move


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The Story of Jesus in The Wilderness [409] is about Jesus facing his own Demon.
The dark side of The Creator eventually has to be faced by all individuals as a matter of Par For The Course [188]
It does not appear to be good, even that it is normal, or as we would expect.
However, - once done- one understand more clearly the phrase "Be Perfect as The Father is Perfect"

The Script: “If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. “Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. “Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ “But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. “For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? “If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 5 by Checkpoint]

Thanks, Checkpoint. Would you consider the James 4:7 passage to be consistent with 2timothy316’s point about the Devil “putting something in our path�? Where I’m trying to get to is an understanding of whether the Devil’s power is understood to be limited to this kind of ‘offering temptation’, or whether there’s more to it than that (as hinted by people’s caution about underestimating him)?

2 Timothy 3:16 does not seem to me to be what you intended to refer to, so please take a look and let me know the correct one, and I can then answer your question. Thanks.

My understanding of your other quote from Peter is that the ‘prowling lion’ reference is simply an appropriate simile - a literary device. It’s not clear, however, whether the ‘devouring’ part is part of the same simile or not. Could the Devil ‘devour’ someone? Perhaps spiritually-speaking? If so, that suggests greater power than being merely a ‘tempter’.

I think "devour" is part of the simile.

Satan uses his demons to harass people and oppress them. That is more than just tempting and deceiving them.

We see this in the Gospels, but more to the point, we see there how Jesus responded, and that he had absolute power over them, and they recognised that.

As for believers, they only have power over us if we let them by not being alert or failing to resist them.