In preaching to Jews,

[Elijah John]

Jesus preached to Jews, and all of his first apostles and disciples were Jews.

For debate, what did Jesus preach that was not already provided by devout observance of Judaism? How was his message different than that or any reforming Jew of the day?

From Luke:

"they have Moses and the Prophets, if they don't listen to them, neither will they listen if someone were to rise from the dead".

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

The main theme of Jesus preaching was God's kingdom (a govenment) that would solve all mankinds problems.

Jesus more about the Kingdom than about any other subject—more than love, more than mercy more than his own name - referring to it more than 100 times during his ministry, he taught his followers to pray for it and showed them by example how they could be part of it.

The Jews knew to expect a ruling king, the promised Messiah, but they did not know how that rulership would be established or what it would mean for humanity. Jesus revealed that it would not be an earthly government, established through the soliciting of human support but a government in heaven (" the kingdom of the heavens") given power directly by Almighty God himself.

The Jews knew somehow that this future king would be a liberator but Jesus taught they needed to think bigger, way bigger. Bigger as in a liberators from sin and death, bigger as in freeing all humanity from oppression, suffering and sadness. Bigger as in eternal life in heaven for a few and on earth for a multitude. He tried to teach them that their animal sacrifices were pointing towards something, somethjng bigger, earth changing, universal, and that that "something more" was him.

Some understood, sadly most did not.



JW






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What is Gods Kingdom?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 867#956867

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

Excellent. Yes, Jesus wasn't really preaching to the choir, because hundreds of Jews listened to him and became his disciples. How wonderful that he found 11 real strong believers that were actually waiting for the Messiah, and then, later, many more.

[Mithrae]

devout observance of Judaism

Can you provide a clear and cohesive explanation of what that meant to the Saducees, Shammai Pharisees, Hillel Pharisees, Essenes, Zealots, ascetics, mystics, tax collectors, priests, scribes, diaspora Jews and gentile converts of Jesus' day?

On the one hand, 1st century Judaism was diverse enough that it seems to me any would-be argument that "no true Jew" would claim or teach whatever is attributed to Jesus, Paul and so on are obviously and laughably fallacious (regardless how frequently variations on them may be raised even sometimes by serious scholars). On the other hand, it means that there's probably nothing in the NT that is really and radically new: Not the notion of justification through sincere repentance and faith rather than ritualistic sacrifice or good deeds, not the notion that the written Torah was an incomplete or otherwise limited source of divine guidance, not even the notion of a divine Logos as a sort of secondary god.

Even Jesus' commands to forsake all possessions - despite being quite different from a previous strand of Jewish (and probably all other cultures') propaganda suggesting that material wealth was a sign of divine favour - were preceded by the asceticism of folk like John the Baptist and perhaps influenced from outside the strictly Jewish tradition by the likes of Cynic philosophy.

[Red Wolf]

The Jews were expecting the Messiah to come and establish the Messianic kingdom. There are numerous prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures concerning the Messiah and the future Kingdom....unfortunately Jesus did not fulfill any of the prophecies of the OT.

[onewithhim]

The Jews were expecting the Messiah to come and establish the Messianic kingdom. There are numerous prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures concerning the Messiah and the future Kingdom....unfortunately Jesus did not fulfill any of the prophecies of the OT.

He certainly did. They just did not have an understanding that the Messiah would come first to die and save them from their iniquities (Isaiah chapter 53), and then later, in the distant future, would rule the world. It's all there in the Old Testament.

Daniel chapters 2,4 and 9
Isaiah chapters 9 and 11

The Messiah was prophesied to be temporarily killed from Genesis---chapter 3, verse 15. The Jewish leaders, though, did not teach the people what the Scriptures said. I guess they had to read it on their own. Some were expecting Him according to the timing of Daniel 9:24-27.



.

[Red Wolf]

The Jews were expecting the Messiah to come and establish the Messianic kingdom. There are numerous prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures concerning the Messiah and the future Kingdom....unfortunately Jesus did not fulfill any of the prophecies of the OT.

He certainly did. They just did not have an understanding that the Messiah would come first to die and save them from their iniquities (Isaiah chapter 53), and then later, in the distant future, would rule the world. It's all there in the Old Testament.

Daniel chapters 2,4 and 9
Isaiah chapters 9 and 11

The Messiah was prophesied to be temporarily killed from Genesis---chapter 3, verse 15. The Jewish leaders, though, did not teach the people what the Scriptures said. I guess they had to read it on their own. Some were expecting Him according to the timing of Daniel 9:24-27.



.

What about Isaiah 53? Tell me what you think it says

[brianbbs67]

Jesus' teachings, besides a heavenly kingdom and earthly one, was almost exclusively to follow the Law and prophets without the traditions of man that negated God's law. He mirrored Bet Hillel in most of his teachings. Enough where I tend to believe he was taught by or trained under them or at least agreed. This was the "truth" he and the apostles spoke of exposing and teaching their fellow Jews and the Gentiles in Acts.

[Adstar]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

The problem is that no one can be a ""devout"" ( follow 100% without failure ) follower of all the judaic laws..

(Leviticus 19:37) "Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the LORD."

(Deuteronomy 27:26) "Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen."

[Wootah]

Jesus preached to Jews, and all of his first apostles and disciples were Jews.

For debate, what did Jesus preach that was not already provided by devout observance of Judaism? How was his message different than that or any reforming Jew of the day?

From Luke:

"they have Moses and the Prophets, if they don't listen to them, neither will they listen if someone were to rise from the dead".

I heard it said recently that there are two responses to the law, shame if you are a lawbreaker and pride or arrogance if you are not.

This seems to me to be the sin of Pharisees and why Jesus said to do as they said but not as they do.

I was speaking to a secular friend last week and he was convinced he was a good person (ie - the pride side of the equation). This pride will keep many from the life to come in Jesus is my understanding.