Are Jesus and Paul on the same page?

[Elijah John]

Romans 10.9

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

vs.

Matthew 7.21

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Are Jesus and Paul saying the same thing here regarding salvation? How so?

[ttruscott]

Romans 10.9

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

vs.

Matthew 7.21

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Are Jesus and Paul saying the same thing here regarding salvation? How so?

Romans 10.9 states the measure: Declaring with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believing in your heart that God raised him from the dead is the measure.

Matthew 7.21 states the fine tuning corollaries to the measure separating false claims from real.

[showme]

Romans 10.9

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

vs.

Matthew 7.21

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Are Jesus and Paul saying the same thing here regarding salvation? How so?

As Paul is dead, what was he saved from? Paul teaches lawlessness (Romans 7:6 & 25), whereas Yeshua in Matthew 7:22 declares "I never knew you" to those who do lawlessness. Paul's babel is antithetical to the testimony of Yeshua, which requires one to keep the commandments to enter into life (Matthew 19:17). Paul's followers would be the tares of Matthew 13:30, who are slated to be gathered up "first", and "burned". They are under the false impression that they will be "first" raptured, but that is apparently not correct.

[Divine Insight]

Romans 10.9

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

vs.

Matthew 7.21

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Are Jesus and Paul saying the same thing here regarding salvation? How so?

No, not even close.

In Matthew 7.21 Jesus is saying that only those who do the will of the Father God will enter the kingdom of heaven.

In other words, entering the kingdom of heaven has nothing at all to do with Jesus. Only those who EARN their own salvation by doing the will of the Father God will enter the kingdom of heaven.

In fact, Matthew has Jesus making this clear in 25:46 too, "And these (the unrighteous) shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Righteous people go to eternal life. Not those who believe in Jesus or call him Lord.

I'm not suggesting that there is any truth to these ancient rumors, but this is apparently what they are saying.

Paul, on the other hand, seems to think that merely believing that Jesus was raised from the dead and proclaiming him to be "Lord" will be sufficient to be granted undeserved amnesty as a free gift of belief and having proclaimed Jesus to be Lord.

Again, just more evidence that various authors of these ancient scripts have very different opinions on what they imagine God to be like. Clearly Paul and Matthew have very different ideas.

No need to even speak of any "Jesus" since it cannot be shown that Matthew's opinions correctly reflect anyone's other than his own. It's ridiculous to think that Matthew could dependably quote a "Jesus" verbatim decades after Jesus had supposedly died.

So we really have nothing that can be reliably attributed to "Jesus". All we have are hearsay quotes being claimed decades after Jesus had died.

But if we do allow that Matthew did correctly quote Jesus, then Jesus is saying something dramatically different from Paul. Paul would then be far more likely to be a "False Prophet" that Jesus warned would come.

After all, where did Jesus ever prophesize the coming of Paul? He didn't.

Why anyone would believe anything Paul wrote is beyond me.

[brianbbs67]

Paul is probably the most misinterpeted and misunderstood by his manner of speech, of anyone in the bible. I believe he did indeed teach the law was still valid as Christ taught. In Romans 7, he speaks of the law of sin and death. The wages of sin is death, but Christ's sacrifice frees us from the consequence if we continue to follow law. 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not!.... 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. Etc. Acts 24:14"But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call heresy, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all thingswhich are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

[showme]

Paul is probably the most misinterpeted and misunderstood by his manner of speech, of anyone in the bible. I believe he did indeed teach the law was still valid as Christ taught. In Romans 7, he speaks of the law of sin and death. The wages of sin is death, but Christ's sacrifice frees us from the consequence if we continue to follow law. 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not!.... 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. Etc. Acts 24:14"But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call heresy, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all thingswhich are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

Apparently Paul didn't "continue to follow the law", because apparently he is dead.

[Elijah John]

Romans 10.9

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

vs.

Matthew 7.21

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Are Jesus and Paul saying the same thing here regarding salvation? How so?

As Paul is dead, what was he saved from? Paul teaches lawlessness (Romans 7:6 & 25), whereas Yeshua in Matthew 7:22 declares "I never knew you" to those who do lawlessness. Paul's babel is antithetical to the testimony of Yeshua, which requires one to keep the commandments to enter into life (Matthew 19:17). Paul's followers would be the tares of Matthew 13:30, who are slated to be gathered up "first", and "burned". They are under the false impression that they will be "first" raptured, but that is apparently not correct.

I agree with much of your statement here, but I would add that while Jesus taught the necessity of keeping the Law in order to enter Life, he also taught repentance and the mercy of the Father. So it's not as though those who make mistakes are doomed, there is always the provision of repentance and the Father's mercy for restoration on the path of Life.

And Jesus did teach halachah, that salvation was a path. The path of the "straight and narrow". The authors of the Didache (attributed to the Apostles) also taught halachah.

This is something that Paul and his disciples (the RCC and it's offshoots) seem to overlook or ignore, for the most part.

[showme]

[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]

After all, where did Jesus ever prophesize the coming of Paul? He didn't.

Actually God prophesized the "Gentile" church, and Paul as one of its leaders per Zechariah 11:7-10. Paul was the "staff" called "Favor", in honor of his false gospel of grace, which is supposedly being in the "Favor" of God. The Gentile church would be the "flock" "doomed for slaughter" in Zechariah 11:7, and the 2nd "staff", would be the "worthless shepherd" of Zechariah 11:16-17, Peter, whose successor would be the pope, and both would neither feed, care, or tend the sheep, but eat the fat (Ezekiel 34), and not seek the lost (Acts 15:7), such as the lost sheep of the house of Israel. God also prophesized concerning the Gentile church, the adulteress, as being bought from her husband, the prince of Greece (Daniel 10:20), for the equivalence of 30 shekels of silver, until the "sons of Israel will return" (Hosea 3).

[showme]

[Replying to post 7 by Elijah John]

I agree with much of your statement here, but I would add that while Jesus taught the necessity of keeping the Law in order to enter Life, he also taught repentance and the mercy of the Father. So it's not as though those who make mistakes are doomed, there is always the provision of repentance and the Father's mercy for restoration on the path of Life

Yeshua's message of the "kingdom of heaven, is at hand" came with "repent", confess your sins, and produce good fruit, or be cut down and burned. It also included baptism, but Yeshua would bring the baptism of the "Holy Spirit" and of "fire". As for mercy, as you judge others, so shall you be judged. The main stream "Christian" church has decided to throw non "Christians", non believers of Paul, into hell. I don't think that bodes well for them, as the "false prophet" is apparently destined for the "lake of fire" (Revelation 20:10). And as far as the remainder of the nations following the Jews in the path, that apparently happens after the "awesome day of the LORD", when apparently, there will be fewer Gentiles (man kind) "left" (Zechariah 14:16) & (Revelation 9:18).

[The Tanager]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

I don't think they contradict. To me Romans 10:9 seems to be talking about putting your belief/trust in Jesus who was raised from the dead as the Lord over your life. The context in Matthew 7 (and 25) seems to be about people who call themselves Jesus' followers, but really aren't. They are saying they have Jesus as Lord, but they aren't doing God's will. They claim to do things in Jesus' name, but they don't know Jesus, so how could they really do it in Jesus' name? They are doing their own thing and stamping Jesus' name on it like it's magic. Matthew's context doesn't say anything about those who don't consider Jesus to be their Lord.