Another challenge. Prove that the Messiah,

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:42 am

Here's another challenge. Prove that the Messiah was supposed to have been, or is supposed to be "God-Incarnate". Do so please, using only references from the "Old" Testament/Hebrew Bible.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:26 pm

Generally speaking the old testament testifies to God rescuing his people in such a way that his people cannot boast in their own strength. The rescuing is totally God's work.

So in Jesus we would expect God to do the rescuing. If Jesus is not God then a man called Jesus can boast that he led a sinless life. All mankind can boast that we were saved by one of us and not by God.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:35 am

Wootah wrote: Generally speaking the old testament testifies to God rescuing his people in such a way that his people cannot boast in their own strength. The rescuing is totally God's work.

So in Jesus we would expect God to do the rescuing. If Jesus is not God then a man called Jesus can boast that he led a sinless life. All mankind can boast that we were saved by one of us and not by God.

How does this prove that that the folks who wrote the "Old" Testament believed or taught that the Messiah was supposed to have been God-incarnate?

polonius · Post by **polonius** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:13 pm

Elijah John wrote:
Wootah wrote: Generally speaking the old testament testifies to God rescuing his people in such a way that his people cannot boast in their own strength. The rescuing is totally God's work.

So in Jesus we would expect God to do the rescuing. If Jesus is not God then a man called Jesus can boast that he led a sinless life. All mankind can boast that we were saved by one of us and not by God.
How does this prove that that the folks who wrote the "Old" Testament believed or taught that the Messiah was supposed to have been God-incarnate?

RESPONSE: The Jews believed that the Messiah was supposed to have been a man, a remarkable one, but not divine. In the seed line of both David and Solomon.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:36 pm

polonius wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
Wootah wrote: Generally speaking the old testament testifies to God rescuing his people in such a way that his people cannot boast in their own strength. The rescuing is totally God's work.

So in Jesus we would expect God to do the rescuing. If Jesus is not God then a man called Jesus can boast that he led a sinless life. All mankind can boast that we were saved by one of us and not by God.
How does this prove that that the folks who wrote the "Old" Testament believed or taught that the Messiah was supposed to have been God-incarnate?
RESPONSE: The Jews believed that the Messiah was supposed to have been a man, a remarkable one, but not divine. In the seed line of both David and Solomon.

I agree that's what they were looking for. But the point is that their book gives more evidence towards expecting God to rescue them than expecting a man to rescue them.

It seems very likely that Jews do not re-read the Bible dispassionately and look at the evidence and discuss alternatives.

In fairness, no one expected Jesus. This is the process of inversion. God did not save the world the way the world expected.

brianbbs67 · Post by **brianbbs67** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:26 am

Elijah John wrote:
Wootah wrote: Generally speaking the old testament testifies to God rescuing his people in such a way that his people cannot boast in their own strength. The rescuing is totally God's work.

So in Jesus we would expect God to do the rescuing. If Jesus is not God then a man called Jesus can boast that he led a sinless life. All mankind can boast that we were saved by one of us and not by God.
How does this prove that that the folks who wrote the "Old" Testament believed or taught that the Messiah was supposed to have been God-incarnate?

It doesn't. The Messiah was never God incarnate according to hHebrew scripture. But, they wrote their bible even later than ours. About 800 ad., because all had been lost at 70 ad. The term Rabbi, didn't exist until about 600 ad. They were the repeaters of oral traditions.(Rabbi) So, this whole exercise of theology is a leap of faith because no one alive knows. So, the details are hidden. The core is written in our hearts.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:17 pm

I found this useful linking OT passages to NT fulfillments by Jesus

https://jewsforjesus.org/answers/top-40 ... rophecies/

One sample:

Isaiah 9:6â€“7 (ESV)
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,

God incarnate right there - a child, a son and his name shall be called Mighty God.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:36 pm

Wootah wrote: I found this useful linking OT passages to NT fulfillments by Jesus

https://jewsforjesus.org/answers/top-40 ... rophecies/

One sample:

Isaiah 9:6â€“7 (ESV)
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,

God incarnate right there - a child, a son and his name shall be called Mighty God.

I think that is probably best supporting evidence of your position from the OT/Hebrew Bible. I do not really know the context, and that may shed some more light on the passage. For instance, do we really know that the verse is referring to the Messiah? How so? But one thing right off the bat. How is Jesus, the Son, the "everlasting Father"?

Even in Trinitarian thought, that is conflating the roles.

And again, isn't this a lonely passage in isolation if one wants to prove the Divinity of the Messiah? I thought Evangelicals opposed that kind of verse-mining.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:10 pm

[Replying to Elijah John]

It is a Trinitarian passage

Wonderful counselor - holy spirit
Everlasting Father - father
Prince of Peace - son

The link has 40 samples .... shall we try another?

Post by **Tcg** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:39 pm

Wootah wrote: [Replying to Elijah John]

It is a Trinitarian passage

Wonderful counselor - holy spirit
Everlasting Father - father
Prince of Peace - son

If you are claiming this passage as a roll call, you missed one. You skipped, Mighty God. This then would be evidence of four gods in one. A Quadarian passage

Wonderful counselor - holy spirit
Mighty God - the big boss
Everlasting Father - father
Prince of Peace - son