Paul's God

[Elijah John]

Granted, Paul never comes out and says "Christ is God" or "Christ is my God". But for all intents and purposes, he may as well have.

Consider:

-"I can do all thing through Christ who strengthens me".
-"For me to live is Christ and to die is gain".
-"It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me"

And I'm sure there are other examples of where Paul put's Christ in God's place.

These hypothetical alternatives may illuminate. Consider, if Paul had said instead:

-"I can do all things though YHVH, who strengthens me"
-"For me to live is YHVH, and to die is gain""
-"It is no longer I who live, but YHVH who lives in me"

Or, more generically,

-"I can do all things though God who strengthens me"
-"For me to live is God, and to die is gain"
-"It is no longer I who live, but God who lives in me"

Jehovah's Witnesses and others insist that Paul does not worship Christ, nor does he consider him "God".

a) But don't these examples illustrate that indeed, for all practical purposes, whether or not Paul called Christ "God", Paul's God was actually "Christ"?

b) And that he really only paid lip service to the Father on the relatively rare occasions where he mentions the Father at all?

c) Where does Paul ever place the name of Jehovah above the name of Jesus Christ?

d) Why do Jehovah's Witnesses consider Paul authoritative when he was really a "Christ Witness" and in no way a witness for Jehovah?

e) And doesn't Paul's emphasis once again prove the Thomas Paine claim that "instead of God, a man is preached" ?

f) If it turns out that Christ is not God, was Paul in effect, an idolator?

Please address any combo of the above.

[marco]

Consider:

-"I can do all thing through Christ who strengthens me".
-"For me to live is Christ and to die is gain".
-"It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me"

Jehovah's Witnesses and others insist that Paul does not worship Christ, nor does he consider him "God".

a) But don't these examples illustrate that indeed, for all practical purposes, whether or not Paul called Christ "God", Paul's God was actually "Christ"?

Christ said he got his power through God. Paul is claiming to have an affinity with Jesus, who has been raised to supernatural status. There are supernatural beings who are not God - Gabriel for one. Paul is probably seeing Christ, still working his wonders through God, admitted to the order of supernatural entities that surround God.

It is hard to know what was in Paul's head. He may have had concussion after his fall. But we need not take his claims as anything more than ascribing to Jesus a special place in heaven, probably at the right hand of God. I wouldn't imagine that the sensible Paul believed this made Jesus into Yahweh.

[showme]

Granted, Paul never comes out and says "Christ is God" or "Christ is my God". But for all intents and purposes, he may as well have.

Consider:

-"I can do all thing through Christ who strengthens me".
-"For me to live is Christ and to die is gain".
-"It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me"

And I'm sure there are other examples of where Paul put's Christ in God's place.

These hypothetical alternatives may illuminate. Consider, if Paul had said instead:

-"I can do all things though YHVH, who strengthens me"
-"For me to live is YHVH, and to die is gain""
-"It is no longer I who live, but YHVH who lives in me"

Or, more generically,

-"I can do all things though God who strengthens me"
-"For me to live is God, and to die is gain"
-"It is no longer I who live, but God who lives in me"

Jehovah's Witnesses and others insist that Paul does not worship Christ, nor does he consider him "God".

a) But don't these examples illustrate that indeed, for all practical purposes, whether or not Paul called Christ "God", Paul's God was actually "Christ"?

b) And that he really only paid lip service to the Father on the relatively rare occasions where he mentions the Father at all?

c) Where does Paul ever place the name of Jehovah above the name of Jesus Christ?

d) Why do Jehovah's Witnesses consider Paul authoritative when he was really a "Christ Witness" and in no way a witness for Jehovah?

e) And doesn't Paul's emphasis once again prove the Thomas Paine claim that "instead of God, a man is preached" ?

f) If it turns out that Christ is not God, was Paul in effect, an idolator?

Please address any combo of the above.

Paul, one of the false prophets, in sheep's clothing, of Matthew 7:15, was best described in Matthew 7:22, whereas Yeshua said, "did we not prophesy in your name".. " and in your name perform many miracles".

[Elijah John]

Consider:

-"I can do all thing through Christ who strengthens me".
-"For me to live is Christ and to die is gain".
-"It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me"

Jehovah's Witnesses and others insist that Paul does not worship Christ, nor does he consider him "God".

a) But don't these examples illustrate that indeed, for all practical purposes, whether or not Paul called Christ "God", Paul's God was actually "Christ"?

Christ said he got his power through God. Paul is claiming to have an affinity with Jesus, who has been raised to supernatural status. There are supernatural beings who are not God - Gabriel for one. Paul is probably seeing Christ, still working his wonders through God, admitted to the order of supernatural entities that surround God.

It is hard to know what was in Paul's head. He may have had concussion after his fall. But we need not take his claims as anything more than ascribing to Jesus a special place in heaven, probably at the right hand of God. I wouldn't imagine that the sensible Paul believed this made Jesus into Yahweh.

I don't think Paul's statements give us that option, my friend.

Given his usage, doesn't Paul put "Christ" in the position of God? Seems to me Paul's estimation of "Christ" eclipses the Father, and goes far beyond a mere "supernatural entity". In effect, Paul "gushes" about "Christ.

And if so, isn't Paul's usage evidence that Paul equated Jesus with God but for some reason was hesitant to come out and say plainly "Christ is God"? Indirectly, isn't Paul saying as much?

Still, Paul pays lip service to the notion that the Father alone is God, (1 Timothy 2.5, as well as his apostolic salutations) but does he ever really speak of the Father as "highly", in such glowing terms, and with as much passion as he speaks of "Christ"? Does Paul ever say, "for me to live is Jehovah"? Or "I can do all things through Jehovah who strenghens me"? Or. "it is no longer I who live, but Jehovah who lives in me"?

You're right, we cannot really get into Paul's head. But if Paul simply considerd Christ a supernatural entity, and yet spoke of him the way one would ordinarly speak of God, isn't that in effect elevating that entity to the level of God the Father, if not higher? And in effect, a violation of Shema, as well as the first commandment. A form of "soft idolatry" at the very least. Aren't those the implications of what Paul is doing?

Assuming of course, that Jesus is not actually YHVH God.

[Elijah John]

Paul, one of the false prophets, in sheep's clothing, of Matthew 7:15, was best described in Matthew 7:22, whereas Yeshua said, "did we not prophesy in your name".. " and in your name perform many miracles".

Not sure if I would go quite that far, but it is ironic that Paul who cursed those who preached a "different Gospel" did exactly that. It was Paul who actually preached a "different Gospel" than what Jesus preached.

Jesus did not go around preaching "believe in my impending death and resurrection as a payment for your sin". But Jesus did preach the mercy of a loving Father and called people to return to that loving Father. I.e. repentance.

[dio9]

[Replying to Elijah John]

Paul's Christ is the unification of God and Man. God is present in Man through Christ. For Paul God is God in heaven and and Christ in Man is the savior of Mankind. Paul's God is both our Father and Savior, as any parent would be. I a mere Man have saved my children a number of times. To live and die with us is an expression of the full investment of God with Mankind. Paul's God is God in Man.

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

I believe that Paul is definitely talking about the divinity of Christ. That is what the entire NT is based upon.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 7 by Peds nurse]

we have to be careful not to let his divinity separate him from humanity.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

I believe that Paul is definitely talking about the divinity of Christ. That is what the entire NT is based upon.

Including the Synoptics? Where do Matthew, Mark or Luke talk about the "divinity of Christ" or even use the term "Christ" the way Paul does. I.e. in places where one would ordinarly place the term "God" or the name of God? Where do the Synoptic writers have their characters say anything close to "for me to live is Christ", or "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me"?

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

I believe that Paul is definitely talking about the divinity of Christ. That is what the entire NT is based upon.

Including the Synoptics? Where do Matthew, Mark or Luke talk about the "divinity of Christ" or even use the term "Christ" the way Paul does. I.e. in places where one would ordinarly place the term "God" or the name of God? Where do the Synoptic writers have their characters say anything close to "for me to live is Christ", or "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me"?

Hello EJ!

Don't the Synoptics tell of His divine birth? In Matthew, the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph and told him to take Mary as his wife because she will give birth to the Messiah, who will save the people from their sins. John the Baptist talked about how Jesus will gather the wheat in the barn (saved people) and will burn the chaff with an unquenchable fire? Did not Satan tempt Jesus in the wilderness and refer to him as the Son of God? The centurion called Him Lord.....This is just in Matthew!

In Mark, the people were amazed because the demons listened to Him. He drove them out, but He would not let them speak, because they knew who He was. He had the authority to forgive sins. He said that He was Lord, even on the Sabbath.

I could go on and on, but I feel that clearly Jesus is revealed as divine, but in human form in the synoptics.

Always a pleasure EJ!