Prophecy and preparation.

[Elijah John]

Many Evangelicals and other Trinitarians, and some non-Trinitarians such as Jehovah's Witnesses are fond of pointing to "fulfilled" prophecy as a means to prove that Jesus was the Messiah.

Fair enough and that is certainly debatable. After all, it would only be fair for God to give us some means to identify the Messiah when he came or when he does eventually arrive.

But an even more important consideration is all but entirely overlooked.

After centuries of YHWH teaching His people that He is One, why didn't He announce His incarnation in advance through his mouthpieces the prophets? Pretty big deal, wouldn't you say?

After all, if He were to incarnate Himself into the person of the Messiah wouldn't that too be worthy of prophecy? Seems a serious omission not to mention "by the way, the Messiah will be your's truly, God incarnate."

Isn't the fact that God did not predict His incarnation, repeatedly, and unmbiguously more evidence that the doctrine of God-made-man in the person of Jesus Christ merely an afterthought? A doctrine of men? Something devised by theologians and hero-worshipers and not Divine revelation?

[101G]

Many Evangelicals and other Trinitarians, and some non-Trinitarians such as Jehovah's Witnesses are fond of pointing to "fulfilled" prophecy as a means to prove that Jesus was the Messiah.

Fair enough and that is certainly debatable. After all, it would only be fair for God to give us some means to identify the Messiah when he came or when he does eventually arrive.

But an even more important consideration is all but entirely overlooked.

After centuries of YHWH teaching His people that He is One, why didn't He announce His incarnation in advance through his mouthpieces the prophets? Pretty big deal, wouldn't you say?

After all, if He were to incarnate Himself into the person of the Messiah wouldn't that too be worthy of prophecy? Seems a serious omission not to mention "by the way, the Messiah will be your's truly, God incarnate."

Isn't the fact that God did not predict His incarnation, repeatedly, and unmbiguously more evidence that the doctrine of God-made-man in the person of Jesus Christ merely an afterthought? A doctrine of men? Something devised by theologians and hero-worshipers and not Divine revelation?

he did, Evidence #1. Genesis 49:10 "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be".

#2. Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

#3. Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you".

#4. Micah 5:2 "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting".

#5. Isaiah 40:3 "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

these will get us started.

now as for him being known? he said so himself. "The Woman at the well".
John 4:25 "The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

John 4:26 "Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

PICYJAG

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 2 by 101G]

I admit Isaiah 9.6 is your best example. But the other OT references speak of GOD as the savior, not an "incarnated" Messiah.

If God were to actually incarnate himself, one would hope there would be repeated, clear and unambiguous prophecies regarding that event. Things that a whole nation devoted to Him and His absolute Oneness could not possibly have missed. Yet miss it they did. Jesus was rejected as Messiah by many of the very people who knew him best.

And there is very little evidence (if any) that even his twelve closest friends regarded him as "God incarnate". The idea would have been a gross violation of the Shema which they were taught from childhood, passed down from God to Moses and to that Nation as a whole, and their descendants, including those twelve.

The Messiah was never supposed to have been "God-incarnate", but rather a real human being mightily annointed of God, metaphorically called "Son". Big difference.

[101G]

[Replying to post 2 by 101G]

I admit Isaiah 9.6 is your best example. But the other OT references speak of GOD as the savior, not an "incarnated" Messiah.

If God were to actually incarnate himself, one would hope there would be repeated, clear and unambiguous prophecies regarding that event. Things that a whole nation devoted to Him and His absolute Oneness could not possibly have missed. Yet miss it they did. Jesus was rejected as Messiah by many of the very people who knew him best.

And there is very little evidence (if any) that even his twelve closest friends regarded him as "God incarnate". The idea would have been a gross violation of the Shema which they were taught from childhood, passed down from God to Moses and to that Nation as a whole, and their descendants, including those twelve.

The Messiah was never supposed to have been "God-incarnate", but rather a real human being mightily annointed of God, metaphorically called "Son". Big difference.

GINOLJC, to all.

first I must disagree with you on, "Isaiah 9.6 is your best example.". for me or for "YOU".... .

and I see you must be void of the Knowledge of this verse also, Genesis 49:10 "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be".

do you know who "Shiloh" is here? I guess not, but to enlighten you,
Shiloh: H7886 ש�ִילֹה Shiyloh (shee-lo') n/p.
1. tranquil.
2. Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah.
[from H7951]
KJV: Shiloh.

then you Ignorantly stated, "But the other OT references speak of GOD as the savior, not an "incarnated" Messiah".

the SAVIOR is the incarnated Messiah. scripture, Isaiah 45:21 "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me".... oh well..... you need to (study) more.

then you said, "The Messiah was never supposed to have been "God-incarnate", but rather a real human being mightily annointed of God, metaphorically called "Son". Big difference.


are you sure, if that's true please explain, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God".

here form means NATURE, and who have an "EQUAL" nature with God being a, as you say, "a real human being".

God himself said that he would go forth as a man, Isaiah 42:13 "The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies".

I see you have no concept of who the messiah, the Son is .

and three, every disciple knew that he was God incarnate, and even the doctor Luke knew, who was a gentile. scripture Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,".

how did Luke knew that Jesus was not Joseph son, but God in flesh?, from OT scripture, which was one I submitted. listen, Luke 3:2 "Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

Luke 3:3 "And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Luke 3:4 "As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Luke 3:5 "Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;

see Luke 3:4 above, the Lord is the "LORD" in Isaiah. listen, Isaiah 40:3 "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God".

who way was prepared that came? the SAVIOR, the MESSIAH.

but thanks for the conversation. Good day.

PICYJAG

[marco]

[quote="101G"]



and I see you must be void of the Knowledge of this verse ………

then you Ignorantly stated,...…..

I see you have no concept of who the messiah, the Son is .


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[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 2 by 101G]

I admit Isaiah 9.6 is your best example. But the other OT references speak of GOD as the savior, not an "incarnated" Messiah.

If God were to actually incarnate himself, one would hope there would be repeated, clear and unambiguous prophecies regarding that event. Things that a whole nation devoted to Him and His absolute Oneness could not possibly have missed. Yet miss it they did. Jesus was rejected as Messiah by many of the very people who knew him best.

And there is very little evidence (if any) that even his twelve closest friends regarded him as "God incarnate". The idea would have been a gross violation of the Shema which they were taught from childhood, passed down from God to Moses and to that Nation as a whole, and their descendants, including those twelve.

The Messiah was never supposed to have been "God-incarnate", but rather a real human being mightily annointed of God, metaphorically called "Son". Big difference.

GINOLJC, to all.

first I must disagree with you on, "Isaiah 9.6 is your best example.". for me or for "YOU".... .

and I see you must be void of the Knowledge of this verse also, Genesis 49:10 "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be".

do you know who "Shiloh" is here? I guess not, but to enlighten you,
Shiloh: H7886 ש�ִילֹה Shiyloh (shee-lo') n/p.
1. tranquil.
2. Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah.
[from H7951]
KJV: Shiloh.

How do your comments here demonstrate that "Shiloh" or the Messiah for that matter, is God incarnate? They do not.

then you Ignorantly stated, "But the other OT references speak of GOD as the savior, not an "incarnated" Messiah".

the SAVIOR is the incarnated Messiah. scripture, Isaiah 45:21 "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me".... oh well..... you need to (study) more.

Again, how does that passage refer to anyone but YHVH alone? Not the Messiah but YHVH GOD. The passage does not even suggest that the Messiah is, or was supposed to have been "God".

then you said, "The Messiah was never supposed to have been "God-incarnate", but rather a real human being mightily annointed of God, metaphorically called "Son". Big difference.


are you sure, if that's true please explain, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God".

here form means NATURE, and who have an "EQUAL" nature with God being a, as you say, "a real human being".

Explain it? I don't have to. You are using NT revisionism to attempt to explain what amounts to a New Testament concept, ie that the Messiah is God. (and that notion that the Messiah is God incarnate is not beyond dispute, ask any JW, who also adhere to the NT.)

What I am seeking here is OT Hebrew Bible prophecy which foretells and prepares God's people that he is about to do something unprecedented, namely incarnate himself into a human being.

NT references after the fact prepare no one.

God himself said that he would go forth as a man, Isaiah 42:13 "The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies".

"as", "like" those are similes. Not predictions of incarnation.

I see you have no concept of who the messiah, the Son is .

I do tend to see these things with "Jewish" eyes, though I am not a Jew. They invented the concept, THEY know best "what Messiah ought to be". In spite of the Amy Grant song to the contrary. ("though the people could not see, what Messiah ought to be" from the song El Shaddai)

and three, every disciple knew that he was God incarnate, and even the doctor Luke knew, who was a gentile. scripture Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,".

Please demonstrate for us that every single disciple knew that Jesus was God incarnate. I doubt you can do this even for every single original apostle, and that is only twelve to prove.

how did Luke knew that Jesus was not Joseph son, but God in flesh?, from OT scripture, which was one I submitted. listen, Luke 3:2 "Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

Luke 3:3 "And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Luke 3:4 "As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

The way of the Lord, not the way of the Messiah. The original verse was referring to YHWH, not Jesus. Jesus and Jehovah are not one in the same.

see Luke 3:4 above, the Lord is the "LORD" in Isaiah. listen, Isaiah 40:3 "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God".

See above. Yes, the LORD is YHVH, not the Messiah, not Jesus. It is not Isaiah, but Christian Trinitarian apologists who conflate the two. When the passage was written, God's direct and apocalyptic intervention was expected. It is not clear that the agency of the Messiah was to have been involved.

who way was prepared that came? the SAVIOR, the MESSIAH.

The "Savior" in the Hebew Bible is YHVH none other.

I, even I am YHVH; and beside me there is no savior.

Isaiah 43.11

If you want to attempt to refute this last example/verse here, be careful to avoid circular reasoning.

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Isn't the fact that God did not predict His incarnation, repeatedly, and unmbiguously more evidence that the doctrine of God-made-man in the person of Jesus Christ merely an afterthought? A doctrine of men? Something devised by theologians and hero-worshipers and not Divine revelation?

Where is one to find this supposed 'Divine revelation' which is so different from what you have referred to as "a doctrine of men devised by theologians and hero worshipers'?

Surely if the differences were that obvious, there would be no dispute.

After all, it would only be fair for God to give us some means to identify the Messiah when he came or when he does eventually arrive.

If that were the actual case, there would be no mistaking this promised messiah. However, it is well documented that many individuals have come along claiming to be the messiah and have been accepted as such until 'failure' and then they are called 'false' - a 'false messiah'.

That would give pretty clear indication that this supposed messiah promised through doctrines, that those doctrines are no less unambiguous coming from the 'mouthpieces the prophets' anyway.

I fail to see how Judaism is any better and delivering the goods than any other religion and their claims. Certainly their idea of GOD is no better.

[Elijah John]

To state or restate the essence of the OP with a bit more clarity:

For the purposes of this particular thread, please cast aside the assumption that the Messiah is God. Yes, the Messiah was/is foretold. I get that.

What the OP is seeking here is Old Testament/Hebrew Bible evidence which foretells and prepares God's people that He is about to do something unprecedented, namely incarnate himself and become a human being.

NT references after the fact prepare no one.

So, did God or didn't He clearly, plainly, repeatedly and unambiguously announce His impending incarnation?

If so where, exactly. How many times, exactly. Are we speaking of isolated and ambiguous verses? Or clear, unmistakable and repeated prophecy.

If God announced His incarnation so clearly, (as some claim) why did so many people miss it? Jews to this day, and the Jews who knew Jesus? There is scant evidence that even his close disciples regarded him as "God incarnate".

That God became man is an appealing idea to millions. But does that appeal make it true?