Did Jesus really rise from the dead?

[polonius]

Christianity is based on the claim that Jesus rose from the dead.

Let's look at the history we have.

Jesus was crucified by the Romans in the 30-33 AD time frame. (Outside of the New Testament we have reports by Josephus and Tacitus, both non-christian historians.

When was it first written that Jesus had risen from the dead and by whom?

[polonius]

The first report of a Resurrection was written by Paul who was not a witness. It was written 20 to 23 years after the event described. It was a letter to the people of Corinth which is 800 miles from Rome, so few if any people would have had first hand knowledge.

None of the four Evangelists report anything about the appearance of Jesus to 500 witnesses.

1 Corinthians 15: Paul written about 56 AD.

“For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, 4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters[c] at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died.[d] 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.�

Note that Paul does not say Jesus "was seen" but that he "appeared" This would suggest a vision which Paul claimed to be the source of his knowledge of Jesus.

[FWI]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

When was it first written that Jesus had risen from the dead and by whom?

I disagree with your assessment in post 2 and the theme introduced. We must be reading from different books.

The information about the resurrection of the Christ was recorded in "all" the gospels.

Matthew 28: especially verses 5-7
Mark 16: especially verses 6 and 9-11
Luke 24: especially verses 6-7
John 20: verses 14-17, 19 and 20

[polonius]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

When was it first written that Jesus had risen from the dead and by whom?

I disagree with your assessment in post 2 and the theme introduced. We must be reading from different books.

The information about the resurrection of the Christ was recorded in "all" the gospels.

Matthew 28: especially verses 5-7
Mark 16: especially verses 6 and 9-11
Luke 24: especially verses 6-7
John 20: verses 14-17, 19 and 20

RESPONSE: The passage I quoted was written in a Pauling Epistle 1 Corinthians. It is not found in any gospel or any other writing. That's the point.

This "appearence" would have occurred 15-20 years before any gospel was written. Perhaps the gospel writers didn't mention the event because it never occurred.

There is no report in any Gospel of the risen Jesus appearing to 500 people. And if it had occurred - these people would have told others. These "visionaries" were Hebrews, Romans, and Greek, most of whom were literate. Yet none wrote anything about it.

None left any report nor did any of the Evangelists. What does that tell you?

[steveb1]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

1. Yes, the resurrection or some functional equivalent of a resurrection was perceived to have occurred in the experience of the original resurrection-promoters.

2. I deny that Jesus's resurrection has anything at all to do with the resuscitation of a corpse. I affirm that the risen Jesus was "seen" (perceived) in the subjective experience of the first claimants, but that the Jesus who was perceived was a spiritual being and an inner Presence, not a material person. Gospel accounts of the risen Jesus handling objects, food, and inviting doubters to probe his crucifixion wounds, are all later accretions to an older tradition - the tradition of non-material appearances, the kind which Paul talks about.

3. There was no initiating "Easter Sunday". The resurrection appearances probably occurred over an unknown period of time, among different individuals and conventicles throughout Judea and the Galilee. Perhaps Acts' Pentecost scene attests to this as a kind of template of what the resurrection experiences resulted in for Christian faith.

4. Because the resurrection was a subjective, spiritual series of visionary experiences, there never was any historical issue about a tomb, sleeping Roman guards, or a rolled-away stone. Certainly Paul never cites any such items. The disposition of Jesus's corpse, whether it was stolen or it was decomposing in some anonymous grave site, is utterly irrelevant to the non-material, spiritual nature of Jesus's resurrection.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

1. Yes, the resurrection or some functional equivalent of a resurrection was perceived to have occurred in the experience of the original resurrection-promoters.

2. I deny that Jesus's resurrection has anything at all to do with the resuscitation of a corpse. I affirm that the risen Jesus was "seen" (perceived) in the subjective experience of the first claimants, but that the Jesus who was perceived was a spiritual being and an inner Presence, not a material person. Gospel accounts of the risen Jesus handling objects, food, and inviting doubters to probe his crucifixion wounds, are all later accretions to an older tradition - the tradition of non-material appearances, the kind which Paul talks about.

3. There was no initiating "Easter Sunday". The resurrection appearances probably occurred over an unknown period of time, among different individuals and conventicles throughout Judea and the Galilee. Perhaps Acts' Pentecost scene attests to this as a kind of template of what the resurrection experiences resulted in for Christian faith.

4. Because the resurrection was a subjective, spiritual series of visionary experiences, there never was any historical issue about a tomb, sleeping Roman guards, or a rolled-away stone. Certainly Paul never cites any such items. The disposition of Jesus's corpse, whether it was stolen or it was decomposing in some anonymous grave site, is utterly irrelevant to the non-material, spiritual nature of Jesus's resurrection.

RESPONSE: If it ever occurred.

[For_The_Kingdom]

[Replying to post 2 by polonius.advice]

Bruh, with all due respect, you are clearly flooding the forum with these futile threads.

You asked a question in the OP (post # 1), only to directly answer the question yourself in post #2.

???

What exactly are you aiming to do? Are you trying to genuinely have a discussion, or is this a tactful way of letting everyone know, "Hey everybody, I know who recorded the first mention of the Resurrection; it was Paul."

SMH.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

Dr.Gary Habermas the foremost authority on the resurrection compiled a list of 12 facts about the resurrection most critical scholars accept as true.

• 1. Jesus died by crucifixion.
  
  2. He was buried.
  
  3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.
  
  4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).
  
  5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).
  
  6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.
  
  7. The resurrection was the central message.
  
  8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.
  
  9. The Church was born and grew.
  
  10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.
  
  11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).
  
  12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

The was born and grew in the place where Jesus was crucified. It can also be proved that the Church began not long after his crucifiction.

[polonius]

Earth Science Guy posted:

5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).

RESPONSE: Jesus was crucified as an insurrectionist in Jerusalem in 30-33 AD.

There are no written reports until Paul wrote his 1 Corinthians in 55 AD. Paul claimed that 500 people in Corinth (800 miles from Jerusalem) saw the risen Christ. None of them (Jews, Romans, and Greeks( most literate people) nor any of the people they would have told left any such report.

Paul himself was not present at the crucifixion or supposed resurrection. Paul constantly used the term “appeared to� (like a vision) never “saw".

None of the Gospel writers tell this tale.

The resurrection was the central message.

RESPONSE. It has all the elements of folklore not history. But it's a nice story!

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 9 by polonius.advice]

I guess I am not following what it is you are trying to say, because all of the Gospels give an account of the death and resurrection of Jesus. Because it is the central theme in salvation.

1 Cor. 15:3-4

"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve."

You said that Paul wrote the letter to the Corinthians in AD 55. That is 25 years after the death of Jesus. But Paul says that this is what he received when he became a Christian which was not long after the death of Christ. Most scholars put it at AD 37. So we have a very early creed here from not more than 7 years after the death of Christ.

This early date is unheard of in writings of antiquity. This was the message from the disciples from very, very early times in the church.