Is it logical to support Israel?

[AdHoc]

Many christians support Israel perhaps because of the shared biblical history but in general, more and more non-christians today seem to see Israel in a negative light and want to withdraw support from that country.

Is it logical to support Israel as a secular free democracy in a part of the world where that isn't common?

Or is it more logical to not support Israel?

I would especially like to hear the reasons why some christians support Israel and why some non-theists don't support Israel.

[jgh7]

What does not support Israel mean, and what does support mean?

Like does not supporting Israel mean it shouldn't be a country?

In any case, I support Israel being a country. I heard they kicked out a bunch of muslims to make it a country. That's definitely wrong.

But that's the past now, and kicking out already established living people again (the Israelis) would just be another wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[AdHoc]

What does not support Israel mean, and what does support mean?

Like does not supporting Israel mean it shouldn't be a country?

It might. I struggled with how to write that and I don't know what it means because it probably means something different to each person. I definitely get the feeling that some people want them to lose and some people think Israel is the "real terrorist organization" and we, the west, shouldn't give them with any military support to help them defend their country. I want to understand why some people feel that way.

In any case, I support Israel being a country. I heard they kicked out a bunch of muslims to make it a country. That's definitely wrong.

But that's the past now, and kicking out already established living people again (the Israelis) would just be another wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right.

That's a fair and reasonable position. Today Jews, Muslims, Christians, Ba'hai, Atheists, Agnostics and Pastafarians all live in Israel together. So Israeli isn't really synonymous with Jew.

[Haven]

I think this should be in the politics section.

I wouldn't really consider Israel to be a secular, free democracy. It clearly grants a privileged status to the religion of Judaism, which means it isn't secular. It also participates in a colonization effort of Palestinian land (and has launched violent attacks on Palestinians), which seems to disqualify it from being a "free democracy."

[Goat]

I think this should be in the politics section.

I wouldn't really consider Israel to be a secular, free democracy. It clearly grants a privileged status to the religion of Judaism, which means it isn't secular. It also participates in a colonization effort of Palestinian land (and has launched violent attacks on Palestinians), which seems to disqualify it from being a "free democracy."

Well, I will also point out that those 'violent attacks' were in retaliation to suicide bombings or rockets. That isn't to say Israel is blameless, but there is also outside provocation. When you take a look at the makeup of the Israeli government, there are Muslims who are in elected office in Israel, and there are Muslims and Christians in the IDF.

Can you say similar things about the situation in the Gaza strip, or anyplace in Palestine?

[AdHoc]

I think this should be in the politics section.

I wouldn't really consider Israel to be a secular, free democracy. It clearly grants a privileged status to the religion of Judaism, which means it isn't secular.

Well its secular in the sense that the laws of the land are secular, are you suggesting its a theocracy? How does Israel grant a privileged status to the religion of Judaism? If that were true wouldn't they tear down the dome of the rock and rebuild the Jewish temple?

It also participates in a colonization effort of Palestinian land (and has launched violent attacks on Palestinians), which seems to disqualify it from being a "free democracy."

So then is the United States also disqualified from being a "free democracy"? I used the term "free democracy" to describe a place where everyone has the freedom to vote and determine who will govern the land.

[FinalEnigma]

As the OP is not actually interested in my opinion, I'm going to poke at various replies.

I wouldn't really consider Israel to be a secular, free democracy. It clearly grants a privileged status to the religion of Judaism, which means it isn't secular. It also participates in a colonization effort of Palestinian land (and has launched violent attacks on Palestinians), which seems to disqualify it from being a "free democracy."

I would like to see your support for these assertions.

In any case, I support Israel being a country. I heard they kicked out a bunch of muslims to make it a country. That's definitely wrong.

That's not entirely accurate. Would it be unreasonable to suggest that one finds out as much information as one can before condemning an entire country, and not rely on what one has 'heard'? Many people conflate the actions of individuals or groups monolithically as the actions of Israel, and this is not reasonable.

What happened was Israel was granted permission to declare itself a country. They did so. Everyone in the vicinity immediately tried to kill them for it.

Now, were current inhabitants at the time kicked out? yes. Was this a monolithic action by Israel? No.
Israel was at war with all surrounding countries, and some Israeli generals took it upon themselves to kick out inhabitants whose allegiance was to those countries they were at war with. Had it been an Israeli policy or decision to remove all Muslims, there would not be Muslims is Israel. There are.
Should the generals in question have done this? Ideally, no. Do I think they are horrible people for wanting to remove potential threats from within their country at a time when they were under attack on all sides by several countries with larger populations and under threat of extinction? No. Did they go about this well and humanely? No.

When we look at the current situation, many people condemn Israel for their attacks on the Gaza strip. However, I have never heard a single person give a reasonable alternative for Israel.
Should they sit there and ignore constant rocket attacks ant infiltration attempts? No. Would any country in the world sit there and allow wanton attacks on their populace? No. What option do they have?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 7 by FinalEnigma]

FinalEnigma asks:

"Should they sit there and ignore constant rocket attacks ant infiltration attempts? No. Would any country in the world sit there and allow wanton attacks on their populace? No. What option do they have?"

EJ replies:

Good point. Israel is doing what it has to do.

Some ask, well what are the PALESTINIANS supposed to do, they HAVE to wage asemetrical warfare (terrorism), because Israel is so much stronger?

Well, since it is true that Israel is stronger, all the more reason Palestinians should consider using Ghandi-like, non-violent resistance instead. Sue for peace, using peaceful tactics.

Then the world (including Israel) would be far more receptive to their (sometimes legitmate) grievances.

As it stands now, Palistinians discredit their own cause, using terrorist tactics.

[Paprika]

I think this should be in the politics section.

I wouldn't really consider Israel to be a secular, free democracy. It clearly grants a privileged status to the religion of Judaism, which means it isn't secular.

Well its secular in the sense that the laws of the land are secular, are you suggesting its a theocracy?

It's the 'no true secular state' argument. My recommendation to deal with it is a sharp smack down.

[FinalEnigma]

[Replying to post 7 by FinalEnigma]

FinalEnigma asks:

"Should they sit there and ignore constant rocket attacks ant infiltration attempts? No. Would any country in the world sit there and allow wanton attacks on their populace? No. What option do they have?"

EJ replies:

Good point. Israel is doing what it has to do.

Some ask, well what are the PALESTINIANS supposed to do, they HAVE to wage asemetrical warfare (terrorism), because Israel is so much stronger?

Well, since it is true that Israel is stronger, all the more reason Palestinians should consider using Ghandi-like, non-violent resistance instead. Sue for peace, using peaceful tactics.

Then the world (including Israel) would be far more receptive to their (sometimes legitmate) grievances.

As it stands now, Palistinians discredit their own cause, using terrorist tactics.

That's what I find to be the sticking point. I don't like Netenyahu, because I think he is not enough interested in a reasonable, peaceful solution, and I cannot speak to his position on the subject, but by and large what Israel wants out of this situation, is land for peace.
The largest obstacle in the way of a peaceful resolution, even a two state solution, is that Hamas won't quit trying to kill the Israeli populace, and Hamas has too much support.
Israel has no choice right now. They cannot stop defending themselves and just allow wanton attacks and killing of the Israeli people. They cannot accept a two-state solution so long as the attacks continue, because it would be impossible to protect their people with the proposed borders.
If Hamas was dismantled, the attacks on Israeli citizens stopped, and the Palestinian government wanted peace, then there would be peace. If the Palistinian government, at that point, wanted a two state solution, it would happen.

I believe it was the Israeli ambassador who said "If the Palestinians laid down their arms, there would be peace. If Israel laid down their arms, there would be no Israel."

To all those who are anti-Israel:
Yes, horrible things have happened. Yes, Israel and/or some of her people HAVE done wrong. We agree on this, but that doesn't help anything - that offers no solutions. Solutions can only be found in the future, not in arguing over the past.

so I ask this of you: Before you condemn Israel for the continuance of the situation in the middle east, propose for me a reasonable course of action that Israel could take that would end the violence, without undue harm to either populace.