Do Christians Believe in Democracy?

[Danmark]

When I first read that 57% of Republicans wanted to scrap the U. S. Constitution and establish Christianity as the State religion, I did not believe it. So I looked it up:
"Q17 (Republicans) Would you support or oppose
establishing Christianity as the national
religion?
57% Support establishing Christianity as the
national religion...............................................
30% Oppose establishing Christianity as the
national religion...............................................
Not sure 13% ..........................................................
Q18 Would you describe yourself as very liberal,
somewhat liberal, moderate, somewhat
conservative, or very conservative?
Very liberal 2% ......................................................
Somewhat liberal 6% ............................................
Moderate 17% .........................................................
Somewhat conservative 38% ..................................
Very conservative 38% "
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/ ... _22415.pdf

The question for debate is stated in the title.
The affirmative also contends that a huge segment of this country that considers itself 'super patriot' in fact is opposed to the Constitution of the United States and/or wants to repeal its most fundamental principle as stated in the 1st Amendment.

[Strider324]

When I first read that 57% of Republicans wanted to scrap the U. S. Constitution and establish Christianity as the State religion, I did not believe it. So I looked it up:
"Q17 (Republicans) Would you support or oppose
establishing Christianity as the national
religion?
57% Support establishing Christianity as the
national religion...............................................
30% Oppose establishing Christianity as the
national religion...............................................
Not sure 13% ..........................................................
Q18 Would you describe yourself as very liberal,
somewhat liberal, moderate, somewhat
conservative, or very conservative?
Very liberal 2% ......................................................
Somewhat liberal 6% ............................................
Moderate 17% .........................................................
Somewhat conservative 38% ..................................
Very conservative 38% "
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/ ... _22415.pdf

The question for debate is stated in the title.
The affirmative also contends that a huge segment of this country that considers itself 'super patriot' in fact is opposed to the Constitution of the United States and/or wants to repeal its most fundamental principle as stated in the 1st Amendment.

I anticipate that the conservative response will be something to the effect that "Yes, we believe in democracy and its tenet of majority rule. The majority now wants a Theocracy. God bless the USA!"

OTOH, since part of Acts is basically the template for the Communist Manifesto - "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need" - I think Christians would be quite hypocritical to claim a real love for Democracy and its close ties to Capitalism.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 1 by Danmark]

A theocracy can be a form of democracy so yes they still believe in democracy. However, capitalism as strider points out seems to be the antithesis of Christianity.

32And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any [of them] that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35And laid [them] down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

I think the real problem is apt he issue of freedom of thought. Because belief is not a speech it is a mindset. They want to control what people are and are not allowed to think. Very Orwellian.

[Unknowing]

What is interesting is the chart at the top of page 9 which breaks down the vote on the question about Christianity as the state religion by candidate vote. From this chart it appears that those who voted yes also voted for the more conservative candidates (Huckabee, Perry, etc).

Walker, Bush, and Cruz appear to be pulling the more moderate vote which is interesting to me since they are likely the most viable candidates.

As far as the question, I think republicans do believe in democracy. I just don't think many people fully understand the concept and want a democracy limited to what they agree with.

[Danmark]

When I first read that 57% of Republicans wanted to scrap the U. S. Constitution and establish Christianity as the State religion, I did not believe it. So I looked it up:
"Q17 (Republicans) Would you support or oppose
establishing Christianity as the national
religion?
57% Support establishing Christianity as the
national religion...............................................
30% Oppose establishing Christianity as the
national religion...............................................
Not sure 13% ..........................................................
Q18 Would you describe yourself as very liberal,
somewhat liberal, moderate, somewhat
conservative, or very conservative?
Very liberal 2% ......................................................
Somewhat liberal 6% ............................................
Moderate 17% .........................................................
Somewhat conservative 38% ..................................
Very conservative 38% "
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/ ... _22415.pdf

The question for debate is stated in the title.
The affirmative also contends that a huge segment of this country that considers itself 'super patriot' in fact is opposed to the Constitution of the United States and/or wants to repeal its most fundamental principle as stated in the 1st Amendment.

I anticipate that the conservative response will be something to the effect that "Yes, we believe in democracy and its tenet of majority rule. The majority now wants a Theocracy. God bless the USA!"

OTOH, since part of Acts is basically the template for the Communist Manifesto - "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need" - I think Christians would be quite hypocritical to claim a real love for Democracy and its close ties to Capitalism.

They claim to believe in democracy as long as they are in the majority. But they do not believe in the U. S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights, the first ten Amendments.
One of the things they don't accept is that the Constitution requires a as supermajority of 66.67% and 75%, not just 50.000001%

Article 5:
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.

Constitutional amendments are very difficult to pass. That was by design, to prevent mob rule.

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

Do Christians Believe in Democracy?

Considering how so many of 'em use their majority to enact theologically based laws, I'd say they're fine with it.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 6 by JoeyKnothead]

I'm just glad we're allowed to believe in something by the non-Christians and dismayed that it has to be their gods.

Democracy is what I believe in however I also see the value in keeping long term wise rulers and the dangers of an ignorant mob.

I am looking forward to heaven and God's rule which is less democratic. I also don't think democracy works at home, in business or the class room so why does it suddenly work at the national level?

Which is why small government is best and I am just a realist.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 1 by Danmark]

A theocracy can be a form of democracy so yes they still believe in democracy. However, capitalism as strider points out seems to be the antithesis of Christianity.

32And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any [of them] that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35And laid [them] down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

I think the real problem is apt he issue of freedom of thought. Because belief is not a speech it is a mindset. They want to control what people are and are not allowed to think. Very Orwellian.

First, the Constitution of these United did not establish a federal democracy, but a democratic republic, with a democratically elected house of representatives, senators appointed by the states and a president elected by democratically elected representatives to a national assembly of electors. This relates to how laws are established. The absolute extremes are dictatorship, which Jefferson referred to as tyranny and democracy, which Adams referred to as the tyranny of the majority.

Second, what is recorded in the in acts is not communism. It could be considered a voluntary communal society, but apart from a few localized examples like that one, communism has never resulted in a classless society. In practice, communist nation states are no more communal than the democratic republic of these United States is a democracy. This relates to economics with the absolute extremes of all assets owned and controlled by the state, and no government ownership of anything and markets controlled only by market forces.

Now, those are completely different from a secular state or a theocracy, though I would say a similar principle applies. These apply to the effect of belief systems on a society, as politics apply to how legal policy is set and economics applies to how assets are distributed. The human desire to gain power, whether for good or for ill, makes each of these six extremes impossible in a nation state, and highly unlikely In a small community. Most societies are an admixture of them with checks and balances, and/or power struggles determining the current place in each of the three spectrums. So, do Christians believe in democracy? Some do and some don't, just as some atheists believe in democracy and some do not. Atheists by and large lean toward a secular state, which can be a democracy or a dictatorship, and have a controlled or free economy, while Christians largely lean toward a more theocratic state, which can be a democracy or a dictatorship, and have a controlled or free economy. Though there are nation states that propound secularism and communism as combined goals, and other nation states that propound theocracy and centralized power as combined goals, IMO, phrases like "godless communism" and "theocratic dictatorship" are generally more pejorative than descriptive.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 1 by Danmark]

A theocracy can be a form of democracy so yes they still believe in democracy. However, capitalism as strider points out seems to be the antithesis of Christianity.

32And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any [of them] that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35And laid [them] down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

I think the real problem is apt he issue of freedom of thought. Because belief is not a speech it is a mindset. They want to control what people are and are not allowed to think. Very Orwellian.

First, the Constitution of these United did not establish a federal democracy, but a democratic republic, with a democratically elected house of representatives, senators appointed by the states and a president elected by democratically elected representatives to a national assembly of electors. This relates to how laws are established. The absolute extremes are dictatorship, which Jefferson referred to as tyranny and democracy, which Adams referred to as the tyranny of the majority.

Second, what is recorded in the in acts is not communism. It could be considered a voluntary communal society, but apart from a few localized examples like that one, communism has never resulted in a classless society. In practice, communist nation states are no more communal than the democratic republic of these United States is a democracy. This relates to economics with the absolute extremes of all assets owned and controlled by the state, and no government ownership of anything and markets controlled only by market forces.

Now, those are completely different from a secular state or a theocracy, though I would say a similar principle applies. These apply to the effect of belief systems on a society, as politics apply to how legal policy is set and economics applies to how assets are distributed. The human desire to gain power, whether for good or for ill, makes each of these six extremes impossible in a nation state, and highly unlikely In a small community. Most societies are an admixture of them with checks and balances, and/or power struggles determining the current place in each of the three spectrums. So, do Christians believe in democracy? Some do and some don't, just as some atheists believe in democracy and some do not. Atheists by and large lean toward a secular state, which can be a democracy or a dictatorship, and have a controlled or free economy, while Christians largely lean toward a more theocratic state, which can be a democracy or a dictatorship, and have a controlled or free economy. Though there are nation states that propound secularism and communism as combined goals, and other nation states that propound theocracy and centralized power as combined goals, IMO, phrases like "godless communism" and "theocratic dictatorship" are generally more pejorative than descriptive.

You do realize I said antithesis of capitalism right? not straight up communism all though in its most basic definition communism is essentially any communal society with centralized control. Peter and God in this instance was the centralized power. So sure I agree it is not exactly communism per say but a peach is still a fruit.

I think we are for the most part on the same page though, as I stated above just because they want to scrap the constitution in favor of a theocracy does not mean that the ones who would do this want to abandon democracy. Yes I agree that those terms about dictatorships and communism are generally used in the pejorative.

To expand on my earlier point, about capitalism not really gelling with the new testament, Throughout the gospel you don't find instances of capitalistic ideals instead what we find is Jesus repeatedly stating that we must surrender our assets and give them to the power, not to have riches on earth but spiritual riches. There is a theme throughout the gospels that does not really gel with capitalistic ideas. Now whether someone believes in that or not is a completely different thing altogether. I just don't see capitalism in the new testament. Now the old testament I think you could make that argument, just not with the New testament.

[bluethread]

To expand on my earlier point, about capitalism not really gelling with the new testament, Throughout the gospel you don't find instances of capitalistic ideals instead what we find is Jesus repeatedly stating that we must surrender our assets and give them to the power, not to have riches on earth but spiritual riches. There is a theme throughout the gospels that does not really gel with capitalistic ideas. Now whether someone believes in that or not is a completely different thing altogether. I just don't see capitalism in the new testament. Now the old testament I think you could make that argument, just not with the New testament.

I also believe that the concept of "godless capitalism" is also a bit of a pejorative generalization. The Tanakh is full of examples of giving to the poor. Charity is not necessarily anti-capitalist. It merely states that the economy should be controlled by means of the voluntary application of one's own assets toward the provision of goods and services. As ones actions become required and assets are not privately owned, those controlling the economy become less, not more interested in whether those assets actually provide goods and services.