Counterfeit Money ok with churches

[Choir Loft]

Where Are the Christian Churches When We Need Them Most?

There is an urgent need for the Christian churches to remind their mindless flocks that it is immoral to counterfeit money.

It is just as wrong for me to print fake money to buy your car, for example, as it would be for me to steal it from you outright. The need for the Christian churches to emphasize this ethical precept does not, however, stem from a danger that the Christian masses will resort to the printing press themselves.

Instead, the danger lies in the likelihood that the Christian masses will have their entire life savings and livelihoods wiped out by profoundly immoral economic idiots working in collusion with government who believe that prosperity grows on trees.

Again, one would think that the Christian masses would already be aware that counterfeiting money is sickeningly immoral and economically destructive, but Christians of all stripes have done virtually nothing to stand up to this form of robbery.

This testifies, yet again, to the appalling stupidity of the Christian masses – even when they themselves are being victimized, and the desperate need for the Christian herd to be morally guided by the Christian churches.

Am I my brother's keeper?
How about my family or my community or my country?
Or should I just stick my head in the sand (or some other southern region) and restrict my activity to prayer alone?

(based on an article by Mark R. Crovelli)

[McCulloch]

Counterfeit money is currency that is produced without the legal sanction of the state or government to resemble some official form of currency closely enough that it may be confused for genuine currency. Producing or using counterfeit money is a form of fraud.

I am not quite sure which immoral idiots from within the financial community you are referring to (there are so many to choose from), but I don't think that the fraud you are referring to can be properly called counterfeiting. As this is a debate site, it behooves us to be more specific about who and what we are debating.

[Choir Loft]

Counterfeit money is currency that is produced without the legal sanction of the state or government to resemble some official form of currency closely enough that it may be confused for genuine currency. Producing or using counterfeit money is a form of fraud.

I am not quite sure which immoral idiots from within the financial community you are referring to (there are so many to choose from), but I don't think that the fraud you are referring to can be properly called counterfeiting. As this is a debate site, it behooves us to be more specific about who and what we are debating.

The reference to counterfeit money was a metaphor used to illustrate my assertion.

[definition]A metaphor is a figure of speech in which an expression is used to refer something that it does not literally denote in order to suggest a similarity.

My post wasn't about counterfeiting or even about those who perpetrated the fraud.
It was about the responsibility of churches to respond to a crime that affects us all.

Please go back and reread the entire post before you write a knee jerk response like that. Otherwise we'll never see the forest because of all the trees blocking the view.

[Abraxas]

Counterfeit money is currency that is produced without the legal sanction of the state or government to resemble some official form of currency closely enough that it may be confused for genuine currency. Producing or using counterfeit money is a form of fraud.

I am not quite sure which immoral idiots from within the financial community you are referring to (there are so many to choose from), but I don't think that the fraud you are referring to can be properly called counterfeiting. As this is a debate site, it behooves us to be more specific about who and what we are debating.

The reference to counterfeit money was a metaphor used to illustrate my assertion.

[definition]A metaphor is a figure of speech in which an expression is used to refer something that it does not literally denote in order to suggest a similarity.

My post wasn't about counterfeiting or even about those who perpetrated the fraud.
It was about the responsibility of churches to respond to a crime that affects us all.

Please go back and reread the entire post before you write a knee jerk response like that. Otherwise we'll never see the forest because of all the trees blocking the view.

Having gone back and read your post a few times now, I regret to report I still am lost as to what precisely you are talking about. All I got from it was some unspecified group of idiots who engage in economic activity in collusion with the government run the risk of wiping out savings and livelihoods and this activity is somehow analagous to counterfeiting, possibly related to bank fraud or inflation or both. Further, the church either sanctions this or is supposed to educate people about it and doesn't which amounts to a tacit acceptance of the behavior.

Could you please specify which behavior, exactly, you are refering to?

[McCulloch]

As far as I am aware, the Christian churches teach this about financial dealings:

1. Obey the laws regarding money.
2. Be honest in your financial affairs.
3. Don't be acquisitive.
4. Use your money for good.
5. Be cautious about debt.
6. Don't fret, God is in charge.
7. and some add, if someone would steal your money, don't resist, but that is only for those who actually believe what Jesus said.

Please let me know if these basic teachings have changed a whole lot since I left.

I also believe that there may be some benefit to the churches in encouraging their members to better financial management and avoidance of fraud, however, the particulars of these topics is probably best left to the experts in those fields. I wouldn't expect a church elder advising me on the specifics of dental hygiene or which roofing nails to use either.

Like Abraxas, I am having a difficulty determining specifically what you are railing against. Mark R. Corvelli whom you cite, has been associated with the somewhat a heterodox school of economic thought known as the Austrian School, so I might guess that we're looking for something in the way of a Libertarian rant, but that would only be a guess.

[Choir Loft]

....
the church either sanctions this or is supposed to educate people about it and doesn't which amounts to a tacit acceptance of the behavior.

Could you please specify which behavior, exactly, you are refering to?

You got it...

That the church sanctions it by inaction.
That the church ought to educate it's members about it and doesn't.

In point of fact, the church does not address ANY illegal and unethical behavior. By default it thus gives its approval.

* As a personal request, could you please explain how I might have phrased my response such that it would have been more clearly understood. I fear I may have gotten too wordy.

[McCulloch]

In point of fact, the church does not address ANY illegal and unethical behavior. By default it thus gives its approval.

What churches are you going to? Most churches, (no not most churches, all churches) that I have been to actively discourage illegal and unethical behavior. Not all of them condemn what they see as unethical behavior on the part of those who are not members of their church, like the Westboro Baptists, but I'm not sure that is what they ought to be doing, do you? Should the Pastor or Priest get up in the front of the meeting house and preach about the sinful behavior of the Investment Bankers and the financial regulatory czars who are not present in the congregation?

Are various Christians active in dispensing financial advice?

• Christian Finance Navigation
• Back to Basics:Financial Advice from money coach
• Our Values - Biblical Investing Values

I am sure that a descent web search could yield more. Perhaps I am assuming, but don't you think that some of these might just include the application of the christian perspective on what is ethical with regard to financial behavior?

[Choir Loft]

What churches are you going to? Most churches, (no not most churches, all churches) that I have been to actively discourage illegal and unethical behavior. Not all of them condemn what they see as unethical behavior on the part of those who are not members of their church, like the Westboro Baptists, but I'm not sure that is what they ought to be doing, do you? Should the Pastor or Priest get up in the front of the meeting house and preach about the sinful behavior of the Investment Bankers and the financial regulatory czars who are not present in the congregation?

Are various Christians active in dispensing financial advice?

• Christian Finance Navigation
• Back to Basics:Financial Advice from money coach
• Our Values - Biblical Investing Values

I am sure that a descent web search could yield more. Perhaps I am assuming, but don't you think that some of these might just include the application of the christian perspective on what is ethical with regard to financial behavior?

I currently live in west central Florida and have attended churches from Tampa on the gulf coast to Daytona Beach on the Atlantic side. Prior to that I lived in South Carolina, Virginia and New York State.

Over a period of forty to fifty years, I can speak with accuracy and say that NO CHURCH I've attended has ever addressed the issues of unethical behavior in government, the financial community, the military or even in the community. For example, nothing has ever been said about the KKK, which is active here, or the mafia, which was active in NY during my residence (despite the frequent appearance of dead/'hit' bodies).

Further, there has never been a sermon or series of sermons that I've been privy to that espoused a political response OF ANY SORT to any issue. The closest any of them have ever gotten to political activity is to recite the pledge of allegiance on the 4th of July (which I refuse to do).

As an aside, thank you for taking the time to investigate financial links.

Churches I've attended do provide financial services from time to time, especially when they are about to float a bond issue to support an expansion of the property. I've actually heard messages about financial services (not advice mind you - services) DURING WORSHIP instead of a sermon. Man, there is a time and place for everything but news about free checking accounts is inappropriate during worship services. Shall we now commence singing in praise of Merrill-Lynch instead of God?

Sorry for the rant.

Where was I? Oh yes. Real financial advice such as how to budget your money, is seldom offered here. Again, thanks for your references.

[EconAtheism101]

Or should I just stick my head in the sand (or some other southern region) and restrict my activity to prayer alone?

(based on an article by Mark R. Crovelli)

Matthew 6:6? I mean, small point but I feel it's worth making every time someone says something like this!

I'm sure you're coming at this from a libertarian angle, Mark Crovelli appears to be a Mises institute hack who does cargo cult economics/general pseudo academic stuff for them, and I'm interested, what the hell does christian theology have to do with Monetary Policy? I mean, monetary policy is highly technical stuff, it isn't anything to do with morality which is the only thing theology can ever hope to have a say on.

[Choir Loft]

Or should I just stick my head in the sand (or some other southern region) and restrict my activity to prayer alone?

(based on an article by Mark R. Crovelli)

Matthew 6:6? I mean, small point but I feel it's worth making every time someone says something like this!

I'm sure you're coming at this from a libertarian angle, Mark Crovelli appears to be a Mises institute hack who does cargo cult economics/general pseudo academic stuff for them, and I'm interested, what the hell does christian theology have to do with Monetary Policy? I mean, monetary policy is highly technical stuff, it isn't anything to do with morality which is the only thing theology can ever hope to have a say on.

"Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies."
-Thomas Jefferson

Monetary policy has nothing to do with morality?

How about "thou shalt not steal"? -or-
"Am I my brother's keeper?"

There's been a LOT of one going on, by financiers, by bankers and by uncle sam himself. Too little of the other - by anybody.

The fact that those who are participating in it and getting very very rich DO NOT value morality as part of their "highly technical" equation is THE problem.

The point of my post is that Christians who ought to address morality on the part of these big time crooks - don't. Christians do not as a group address ANYTHING these days, politically speaking. In fact, the assertion presented by most Christians is that they shouldn't do anything.

You always get the government you deserve.

Inaction and non-participation only allows those with selfish ambition and agenda to flourish.

Monetary policy has nothing to do with morality? You can't be serious.

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."
Henry Ford