(My Internet connection has been down for some time; I am working with my BlackBerry, but it wasn’t adequate for this post, so it has been delayed. My apologies. Now let‘s get to my usual analysis and
substantive response to DeBunkem‘s characteristic
non-response.)
As usual, no comment, no rebuttal, no
actual response to anything I’ve posted at all; just another bucket of propaganda flung at the thread as if it were actual debate.
Keep it up! Please! It’s so much FUN to watch you demonstrate, over and over again, that you can’t respond to anything I post with anything other than bluster, sarcasm, deliberate distortions, and hollow polemic.
Shall I prove it yet again? Very well. Let’s take a look; but before we do, I’d just like to note how amusing it is that you’ve
abandoned the claim in your OP without further comment….
DeBunkem wrote:
More BIAS from everyone but IDF disinfo specialists and AIPAC dissemblers, who seem to get very ad hominem when pounded with the facts…
You mean like
The New York Times? I call “unsupported claims� YET AGAIN. See below.
From clearly BIASED DemocracyNow!
Also as usual, more snide, sarcastic remarks about BIAS, but no attempt to
actually disprove it.
Here is the website of democracy now.org. I invite all our readers to go there and see for themselves how much and how often this organization calls for “Democracy Now!� in Iran, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, etc., etc., etc. and how much they focus on Israel, which of course IS a democracy, the only one in the region. Readers can decide for themselves whether or not that constitutes the “BIAS� that you keep mocking -- and doing nothing to disprove.
Anyway, let’s see what they have to say:
WikiLeaks: Israeli Corruption at Gaza Crossing Exposed
In the latest news from WikiLeaks, a newly disclosed classified U.S. diplomatic cable from 2006 reveals that Coca-Cola and other U.S. companies have complained that a key Israeli cargo crossing for goods entering the Gaza Strip was rife with corruption. The memo indicates that Israeli officials asked a Coca-Cola distributor to pay more than $3,000 to get a truckload of merchandise through the Karni Crossing. Other companies that had complained about the corruption include Procter & Gamble, Caterpillar, Philip Morris, Westinghouse, Hewlett-Packard, Motorola and Dell.
Interesting that this cable is from FIVE YEARS AGO -- and it might also be of interest that Israel
admitted the problem and dealt with it, a fact which you seem to have deleted for some mysterious reason. Here’s a
Reuters report that gives a few more facts.
Also -- are you SURE you want to bring up
corruption as it concerns the Palestinians and their leaders, including Hamas? The history there doesn’t exactly speak to the pristine purity of the terrorist organizations… Arafat’s megamillions come to mind. If you want to go THERE, I’m quite ready.
In any case, thanks again for disproving the latest shovelful of horse manure from your sometime source Gordon Duff. Looks like Israel was as embarrassed by the WikiLeaks cables as anyone else.
Israeli Troops Kill 65-Year-Old Man in Home Raid In the occupied West Bank
Israeli troops killed a 65-year-old Palestinian civilian named Amr Qawasme in a pre-dawn house raid earlier today in Hebron. Amr Qawasme’s wife Sopheye said the troops stormed into his bedroom while he was sleeping.
Sopheye Qawasme: "He wasn’t even awake. They just entered the door and shot him right away. I had gone to pray. When I came back, they told me. I have no idea how they just broke into the house and shot him. They came at me and put a rifle to my head, and they shot him again."
The Israeli military confirmed that Amr Qawasme was a civilian, but said the raid was justified because a member of Hamas was living in the building.
This wasn’t just a raid for no reason; the IDF didn’t just come into the house to shoot this man for fun. A Hamas mass murderer was living on the next floor. It was a mistake, which the IDF admitted and for which they expressed regret. Again, here’s a
Reuters article that gives a few more facts in the case you cite.
Nobody has ever said that Israel is perfect; and mistakes are made in wartime. Too, if there were no terrorism, tragic deaths like the one you quote from “DemocracyNow!� wouldn’t have to take place, because there would be no terrorist hideouts to raid.
Oops, I forgot -- there IS no terrorism directed against Israelis, is there?
On the other hand, of course -- which you prefer to pretend doesn’t exist -- we have reports like these:
Feb 19, 1994 - Zipora Sasson, resident of Ariel and five months pregnant, was killed on the trans-Samaria highway in an ambush by shots fired at her car. The terrorists were members of HAMAS.
Apr 6, 1994 - Asher Attia, 48, of Afula, bus driver; Vered Mordechai, 13, of Afula; Maya Elharar, 17, of Afula; Ilana Schreiber, 45, a teacher from Kibbutz Nir David; Meirav Ben-Moshe, 16, of Afula; Ayala Vahaba, 40, a teacher from Afula; and Fadiya Shalabi, 25, of Iksal were killed in a car-bomb attack on a bus in the center of Afula. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack. Ahuva Cohen Onalla, 37, wounded in the attack, died of her wounds on April 25.
Apr 13, 1994 - Rahamim Mazgauker, 34, of Hadera; David Moyal, 26 of Ramat Gan, an Egged mechanic; Daga Perda, 44, who immigrated from Ethiopia in 1991; Bilha Butin, 49, of Hadera; and Sgt. Ari Perlmutter, 19, of Ir Ovot in the Arava were killed in a suicide bombing attack on a bus in the central bus station of Hadera. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 4, 2001 - Naftali Dean, 85, of Tel Mond; his niece, Shlomit Ziv, 58, of Netanya; and Yevgenya Malchin, 70, of Netanya were killed in a suicide bombing in downtown Netanya; 60 people were injured. The Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 28, 2001 - Eliran Rosenberg-Zayat, 15, of Givat Shmuel and Naftali Lanzkorn, 13, of Petah Tikva were killed in a suicide bombing at the Mifgash Hashalom ("peace stop") gas station several hundred meters from an IDF roadblock near the entrance to Kalkilya, east of Kfar Saba. Four people were injured. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
June 28, 2004 - Mordechai Yosepov, 49, and Afik Zahavi, four, were killed when a Kassam rocket fired by Hamas terrorists in the Gaza Strip struck near a nursery school in the northern Negev town of Sderot.
Aug 31, 2004 - Sixteen people were killed and 100 wounded in two suicide bombings within minutes of each other on two Beersheba city buses, on route nos. 6 and 12. The buses were traveling along Beersheba's main street, Rager Blvd, near the city hall. Hamas in Hebron claimed responsibility for the attack. The victims, all residents of Beersheba: Shoshana Amos, 64; Aviel Atash, 3; Vitaly Brodsky, 52; Tamara Dibrashvilli, 70; Raisa Forer, 55; Larisa Gomanenko, 48; Denise Hadad, 50; Tatiana Kortchenko, 49; Rosita Lehman, 45; Karine Malka, 23; Nargiz Ostrovsky, 54; Maria Sokolov, 57; Roman Sokolovsky, 53; Tekele Tiroyaient, 33; Eliyahu Uzan, 58; Emmanuel Yosef (Yosefov), 28.
There are many, many more, but that will do for the moment.
The salient point is that THESE killings of innocent civilians were not mistakes. They were deliberate, calculated acts of murder, and were proudly claimed as such by Hamas.
Watch closely, everyone;
there will be no comment whatever on killings like these. Never has been, never will be. DeBunkem’s propaganda strategy is based on tacitly denying that such things ever happen at all.
He will never, ever so much as acknowledge that they exist, never mind debate their significance and relevance to the conflict. It’s the herd of elephants in the living room which he pretends isn’t there and isn‘t worth mentioning.
Poor, maligned Israel.
{|= Just has no friends among non-AIPAC NGO's for peace and justice. Too bad Apartheid S. Africa had to die...they had such a beautiful relationship testing nukes together. Of course, S. Africa was a target of the rest of the world's disdain for their racist policies, too, even though the oppressed blacks fought back and were labeled terrorists for doing so. No wonder Israel sought out their friendship.
More hollow sarcasm, more polemic, more oversimplification, more implicit falsehoods and unsupported allegations; to hell with nuance and balance. The usual.
The relationship between these two nations is nothing if not mixed. Here are a few facts on Israel and South Africa from the
Wikipedia article:
1949 - 1994
In the 1950s and 1960s, Israel prioritized building relations with the newly independent states of sub-Saharan Africa; this, in turn, led it to take a critical stance on the question of apartheid. On October 11, 1961, Israel voted for the General Assembly censure of Eric Louw's speech defending apartheid. In 1963, Israel informed the United Nations Special Committee on Apartheid that it had taken steps to comply with the military boycott of apartheid South Africa and had recalled its ambassador to South Africa. According to Chris McGreal, "Israel was openly critical of apartheid through the 1950s and 60s as it built alliances with post-colonial African governments. In 1971, Israel offered the Organization of African Unity a gift of $2,850, which was rejected by the organization, but not before causing tension between South African Jews and their government.
Most African states broke ties after the 1973 Yom Kippur war and the government in Jerusalem began to take a more benign view of the isolated regime in Pretoria." Ethan A. Nadelmann has claimed that the relationship developed due to the fact that many African countries broke diplomatic ties with Israel during the 70's following the Arab-Israeli wars, causing Israel to deepen relations with other isolated countries.
….
By 1987 Israel found itself alone among the developed nations in still maintaining strong, even strategic relations with apartheid South Africa (Among African nations, only Malawi maintained diplomatic relations with South Africa throughout the Apartheid era ). On March 18, 1987 the Inner Cabinet of the Israeli government denounced the Apartheid policy of South Africa and limited Israel's security ties with Pretoria. On September 16, 1987 the Israeli Cabinet approved a series of measures designed to limit trade, sports and cultural ties with South Africa. Among them was a clause in the "measures" package stating that effective immediately, only colored, Indian and black students would be allowed to attend leadership courses held in Israel.
…
Alleged Nuclear collaboration
U.S. Intelligence believed that Israel participated in South African nuclear research projects and supplied advanced non-nuclear weapons technology to South Africa during the 1970s, while South Africa was developing its own atomic bombs. According to David Albright, "Faced with sanctions, South Africa began to organize clandestine procurement networks in Europe and the United States, and it began a long, secret collaboration with Israel." He goes on to say "A common question is whether Israel provided South Africa with weapons design assistance, although available evidence argues against significant cooperation.�
…
In 2010, The Guardian released South African government documents that it alleged revealed an Israeli offer to sell Apartheid South Africa nuclear weapons. Israel categorically denied these allegations and said that the documents were minutes from a meeting which did not indicate any offer for a sale of nuclear weapons. Avner Cohen, author of Israel and the Bomb and the forthcoming The Worst-Kept Secret: Israel's Bargain with the Bomb, said "Nothing in the documents suggests there was an actual offer by Israel to sell nuclear weapons to the regime in Pretoria."
…
Relations with post apartheid South Africa
Former ANC leader Nelson Mandela first visited Israel in 1999. Mandela said: "To the many people who have questioned why I came, I say: Israel worked very closely with the apartheid regime. I say: I've made peace with many men who slaughtered our people like animals. Israel cooperated with the apartheid regime, but it did not participate in any atrocities". Then Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Olmert visited South Africa in 2004, meeting with South African President Thabo Mbeki, the first visit by an Israeli leader since the end of apartheid.
Some prominent South African figures, such as Desmond Tutu and Ronnie Kasrils have criticized Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, drawing parallels between apartheid South Africa and modern-day Israel.
The Congress of South African Trade Unions, which represents 1.2 million South African workers, has also accused Israel of practicing apartheid and supported the boycott of the Canadian Union of Public Employees, as well as all Israeli products.
However, South African ambassador to Israel Major General Fumanekile Gqiba generally did not agree with the analogy, saying about his time in Israel:
“…before I came here. I regarded Jews as whites. Purely whites. But when I came here I discovered that, no, these guys are not purely whites. ...You've got Indian Jews, you've got African Jews, and you've got even Chinese Jews, right? I began to say to our comrades, No, Israel is not a white country... Perhaps we would say there are those who came from Poland, who happened to be white-i.e. Ashkenazi their culture still dominates. It's difficult to say Israel is racist, in a classic sense.�
South Africa is an advocate of the two-state solution…
And, of course, we are treated to yet another propaganda cartoon, repeating the phony claim that criticism of Israel is automatically called “antisemitism.�
That false and unsupported claim already been dealt with, MANY times, but, as usual, with no response from you. Putting words in your opponents’ mouths and then making fun of them isn’t debate; it’s just lying and peddling propaganda.
Find me a pro-Israel advocate who has ever said that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. You’ve made the accusation over and over; let’s see you prove it.
Watch closely again; we’ll see more cartoons, more snarky sarcasm, but no actual, meaningful response other than just repeating the canard.
Running out of sources, are you? Can’t use Gordon Duff any more; can’t use Radio Islam; can’t use Human Rights Watch; can’t use UN reports… Reduced to throwing around charges -- against
unspecified news sources, apparently including
The New York Times, -- of being “IDF disinfo specialists and AIPAC dissemblers,� with your standard being quite simply, “If they support Israel, they are part of the conspiracy.� That, of course, amounts to charges of “BIAS� of your own, except that you offer no proof or evidence of their dishonesty
other than their support for Israel. For you and your ilk, that seems to be enough.
That’s called “transparent hypocrisy,� if you didn’t know. You sneer at the evidence of gross and obvious BIAS on the part of YOUR sources, but for some reason you can’t actually ADDRESS it -- while simultaneously throwing around charges of a press controlled by an AIPAC and IDF conspiracy without any evidence whatever. Can you show where YOUR sources are NOT guilty of selective reporting and turning a blind eye to Palestinian war crimes and atrocities?
I’ll
ask, but of course we won’t see an answer; just more facile and sarcastic allusions to “BIAS� as if there is none, and to “AIPAC disinfo specialists,� as if you‘ve proven that ludicrous charge. No actual debate here; just rhetoric and propaganda. Your usual tactics. Phfft.
This is why I love these posts so much: I can talk at length about your dishonest and deceptive tactics and your straight-up unsupported claims and unevidenced propaganda, while clearly exposing your careful silence on any number of salient issues as well as your flat-out falsehoods and hate-peddling --
and you can’t respond at all. As I said before, your mouth is not gagged by AIPAC or by the IDF,
but by your own obvious inability to argue in good faith, acknowledging the relevance of FACTS which don’t fit your fantasy polemic. It’s wonderful fun; shooting fish in a barrel would be more of a challenge. What’s more fun than dissecting arguments from an opponent who refuses to answer with anything but more of the same pathetically obvious smoke-blowing and subject-changing? I can’t wait for your next attempt.
And, of course, once again I must post the following relevant, cogent, on-point and undisputed FACTS -- with a guarantee that you will never so much as MENTION them, never mind attempt to argue against them, which of course proves their probity and truth:
(1) The decades-long campaign of Palestinian attacks against unarmed civilians chosen as primary targets for mass murder
(2) The responsibility of the Palestinian terrorists for the deaths of Palestinian civilians due to their own inarguably criminal tactics
(3) The openly and explicitly stated, and never renounced, Palestinian goal of the total eradication of Israel and the extermination or expulsion of every Jew in the Mideast
(4) The decades of Government-sponsored and encouraged old-school Nazi-style anti-Semitic hate propaganda to which the Arab public is subjected, which includes Holocaust denial, claims of worldwide Jewish conspiracy, the promoting of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as an authentic document, and even, incredibly, dramatizations of the notorious Blood Libel as factually true
(5) The explicit Palestinian goal of “ethnic cleansing� in order to establish a Judenrein Arab nation in the West Bank, and eventually from the Jordan to the sea
(6) The fact that very many Arabs never left Israel at the time of its founding, and many (20% of the Israeli population) live there in peace and freedom as full citizens to this day
(7) The factual record of endlessly repeated Israeli offers of “land for peace�
(8) The blatant and proven anti-Israel bias of the supposedly “unbiased� UN
(9) The blatant and proven anti-Israel bias of many supposedly “unbiased� NGOs
(10) The FACT that looking to mutually exclusive historical narratives of the past offers no solutions, only more endless conflict
Instead, we see, over and over and over again, nothing but Palestinian propaganda; reports from biased and agenda-driven organizations, fake and fabricated “quotes� clearly intended to inflame and promote hatred and resentment, inflammatory and fact-free propaganda cartoons, and even material from unsourced and unacknowledged anti-Semitic websites.
Perhaps DeBunkem’s steely determination never to allow these matters to be discussed accounts for his failure to respond to these unanswered posts of mine, in the following ongoing, unfinished debates which he has apparently abandoned without further attempts at argument:
Israel and the Other Arabs: Signs of Hope
AIPAC spying on US
What I learned from a 1937 World Atlas -- or here, if you like.
Noam Chomsky: Agenda and Tactics
Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay Recognize Palestinian State
Justifying Israel (&ff.)
Israel and Palestine -- Whose Land Is It?
8 Reasons Leftists should be Pro-Israel
Question for DeBunkem
Are Jews “Unrightly� Occupying Israel?
Berserk Israeli Terrorist NOT a Racist?
That determination to ignore and disregard all the facts listed above might also account for his failure to address the topics of any of these threads, as well:
To the Chorus of Chronic, Compulsive Critics of Israel
Questions for Debate: Israel
Oh, to be an Ideologue (on the Left OR the Right)
Human Rights Watch: Bias and Agenda
Are These Events Relevant?
United Nations PROMOTES Racism and Hatred -- Again
Letter from a Forgotten Jew
�How Can You Defend Israel?�
�How Can You Defend Israel?� Part II
And the beat goes on. What will we see next? We know what we WON’T see: any argument or debate regarding any of this. The subject will be dropped,
jusy as the initial claim of the OP was, and we’ll go on with yet another attempt at misdirection, with distortion, selective reporting, empty sarcasm, propaganda, and a few more red herrings.
Carry on. I’m ready. The enormous weight of the FACTS -- you know,
those FACTS that you can’t bear to acknowledge -- are on my side, and you can post from now till the End of Days and you won’t convince anybody. Your self-imposed silence, as I keep saying, speaks louder than your propaganda.
