Did Paul hijack Jesus ?

[stlekee]

I love reading the gospels for the simplicity and deep wisdom/love in Jesus' teachings. But as I talk with Christians and read things here at this site, I hear very little of Jesus' message, but a lot of Pauline doctrine.

So how did Paul become more knowledgable about Jesus than Jesus himself? Doesn't it bother anyone else that Paul comes along after the fact and adds all this theology to account for Jesus? I wonder what Jesus might have thought.

I guess I'm just more interested in Jesus than Paul. But there are relatively few sayings and words of Jesus in the bible compared to Paul's writtings.

[Murad]

I love reading the gospels for the simplicity and deep wisdom/love in Jesus' teachings. But as I talk with Christians and read things here at this site, I hear very little of Jesus' message, but a lot of Pauline doctrine.

So how did Paul become more knowledgable about Jesus than Jesus himself? Doesn't it bother anyone else that Paul comes along after the fact and adds all this theology to account for Jesus? I wonder what Jesus might have thought.

I guess I'm just more interested in Jesus than Paul. But there are relatively few sayings and words of Jesus in the bible compared to Paul's writtings.

Hello stlekee

Here is a great video discussing Paul & how he created Christianity:


I personally believe Paul was like the author of John. Putting subjective thoughts in text and presenting them as facts. If one loves God, i dont see why they would call Gods law(mosaic law) a 'curse'. Also, i dont see any logic in God killing himself so that he would rid the world of his own law, there is no logic in this, but thats exactly what Paul believed, that the death of Jesus 'abolished/made obsolete' the laws of Moses. And that one should only rely on 'faith' and forget the law.

So my answer to your question will be yes, Paul created confusion about Jesus.

[Goat]

I love reading the gospels for the simplicity and deep wisdom/love in Jesus' teachings. But as I talk with Christians and read things here at this site, I hear very little of Jesus' message, but a lot of Pauline doctrine.

So how did Paul become more knowledgable about Jesus than Jesus himself? Doesn't it bother anyone else that Paul comes along after the fact and adds all this theology to account for Jesus? I wonder what Jesus might have thought.

I guess I'm just more interested in Jesus than Paul. But there are relatively few sayings and words of Jesus in the bible compared to Paul's writtings.

Hello stlekee

Here is a great video discussing Paul & how he created Christianity:


I personally believe Paul was like the author of John. Putting subjective thoughts in text and presenting them as facts. If one loves God, i dont see why they would call Gods law(mosaic law) a 'curse'. Also, i dont see any logic in God killing himself so that he would rid the world of his own law, there is no logic in this, but thats exactly what Paul believed, that the death of Jesus 'abolished/made obsolete' the laws of Moses. And that one should only rely on 'faith' and forget the law.

So my answer to your question will be yes, Paul created confusion about Jesus.

There are too many Gnostic concepts in John for me to think he wrote John. The theology of John is much more developed, and in another direction than what Paul was going.

[McCulloch]

In fact, what we can know about Jesus, filtered through later Pauline lenses, is a very different message than Paul. Jesus stresses obedience from the heart to the spirit and intent of the law. Paul emphasizes forgiveness and freedom from the curse of the law. Jesus teaches about a final judgment based on deeds, Paul teaches that your final disposition will be based on belief. Jesus is never on record telling anyone to leave or ignore the traditions of Judaism, Paul deliberately distances himself and his followers from those same traditions.

[Murad]

There are too many Gnostic concepts in John for me to think he wrote John. The theology of John is much more developed, and in another direction than what Paul was going.

I share your opinion that he did not personally write John... But i dont rule out he could of influenced the authors of John.
John shows obvious signs of editing.

Compare John 20:30-31 with John 21:24-25
See that the Gospel originally ended at Chapter 20 and someone added another chapter [21] and most likely edited other portions.

"This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and wrote these things, and WE know that his testimony is true."

John 21:24 The editor reveals himself. This editor could be Paul, or it could be someone that has been influenced by Paul or it could be someone else that is supposedly 'inspired' by God and thus writing his subjective opinions.

In fact, what we can know about Jesus, filtered through later Pauline lenses, is a very different message than Paul. Jesus stresses obedience from the heart to the spirit and intent of the law. Paul emphasizes forgiveness and freedom from the curse of the law. Jesus teaches about a final judgment based on deeds, Paul teaches that your final disposition will be based on belief. Jesus is never on record telling anyone to leave or ignore the traditions of Judaism, Paul deliberately distances himself and his followers from those same traditions.

I totally agree with you. Pauls Jesus was definetly different than the historical Jesus.

[theopoesis]

I love reading the gospels for the simplicity and deep wisdom/love in Jesus' teachings. But as I talk with Christians and read things here at this site, I hear very little of Jesus' message, but a lot of Pauline doctrine.

So how did Paul become more knowledgable about Jesus than Jesus himself? Doesn't it bother anyone else that Paul comes along after the fact and adds all this theology to account for Jesus? I wonder what Jesus might have thought.

I guess I'm just more interested in Jesus than Paul. But there are relatively few sayings and words of Jesus in the bible compared to Paul's writtings.

I think Paul fits into the tradition of the rabbis and synagogues that was just emerging at the time. The tendency (which is evident more clearly in the Talmud) was to reinterpret the torah and prophetic traditions in light of historical circumstances and knowledge. The interpretational style was much similar to Greek dialectic, except that the Scriptures played a substantial role along with the interlocutor. Thus, Paul can be seen as doing two things. First, he is reinterpreting the OT tradition in light of the crucifixion using interlocutors and theology/philosophy. Second, he is reinterpreting the Christ-event in terms of the OT tradition using interlocutors and philosophy. The result is a dialectic between Christ and OT.

I think the trend is similar to what we see taking place in the OT, with the prophets, the deuteronomistic history, or the Psalms. Theology is by nature dialectical between the textual tradition, the current historical circumstance, and the theological and philosophical tradition of the worshipping community. Similar patterns affect the other humanities. I don't see it as a problem, but I am biased because I couple it with faith in the Holy Spirit's guidance of the Church in its textual and theological traditions. It's sort of a fideistic jump to faith in the Christian metanarrative and interpretive community as the community most in connection with God.

I, for one, don't think it is possible to separate the "historical Jesus'" teachings from the teachings of Jesus in the gospels with any degree of accuracy. From my reading, though, the Jesus of the Gospels is fairly in line with Paul, though perhaps not as developed.

[InTheFlesh]

Did Paul hijack Jesus?

No, but I'm about to hijack this thread.

I love reading the gospels for the simplicity and deep wisdom/love in Jesus' teachings. But as I talk with Christians and read things here at this site, I hear very little of Jesus' message, but a lot of Pauline doctrine.

I thought they were one and the same?

So how did Paul become more knowledgable about Jesus than Jesus himself?

He didn't. Paul only knew what was given to him.

Doesn't it bother anyone else that Paul comes along after the fact and adds all this theology to account for Jesus? I wonder what Jesus might have thought.

What Jesus thought, Paul wrote.
Didn't all the New Testament scriptures come after the fact?

I guess I'm just more interested in Jesus than Paul. But there are relatively few sayings and words of Jesus in the bible compared to Paul's writtings.

You need to take your focus away from Paul.
From Genesis to Revelation it's about Jesus.
The law and the prophets witness to Jesus.
He fulfilled them both.
Paul did not claim to be God, Jesus did.
Jesus claimed to be both the Father and the Holy Spirit.

John.11
[25] Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live

These are the words of Jesus, not Paul.

[McCulloch]

From Genesis to Revelation it's about Jesus.
The law and the prophets witness to Jesus.
He fulfilled them both.
Paul did not claim to be God, Jesus did.
Jesus claimed to be both the Father and the Holy Spirit.

The only way to maintain that is to insert a Jesus interpretation post facto to the Hebrew scriptures. Much of what the Christians call the Old Testament cannot be read to be about Jesus of Nazareth when read in context.
Ruth? Esther? Proverbs? 2 Chronicles? Ecclesiastes?

So, if we're going to hijack this thread, let's discuss how virtually all of the New Testament writers hijacked Jewish sacred texts to promote their God-Man | Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth.

[Goat]

There are too many Gnostic concepts in John for me to think he wrote John. The theology of John is much more developed, and in another direction than what Paul was going.

I share your opinion that he did not personally write John... But i dont rule out he could of influenced the authors of John.
John shows obvious signs of editing.

I am sure he influenced at least some of the editors , and I also think there were other authors that had their hand in the GOJ that were very anti-pauline.

[InTheFlesh]

Even though a building may have 4 sides,
and have 4 viewpoints, it's still ONE building.
Anyhow, Paul preached Jesus.

1Cor.1
[1] Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

Rom.1
[1] Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Eph.3
[1] For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,