The horrors of an eternal hell are clearly spelled out in the Bible. We may disagree on if we are burned or frozen or tortured or left completely alone, but the Bible is clear that hell is not something we want to experience. But how long does hell last if God is a fair and just God?
The Catholics have developed the concept of Purgatory so that while hell may be eternal, our suffering for our finite sins (non-mortal sins) can be endured for a time and then we enter heaven purged of our selfishness. Protestants feel that Jesus paid for every sin so that we will all be somehow perfected before entering heaven…although we may well receive unequal rewards forevermore dependent on how we lived when alive on the earth. Others believe that those who do not somehow attain heaven actually suffer forever in hell. Then others still believe that hell is temporary if we don’t qualify for heaven and that the soul is destroyed after it has suffered proportionately for the sins it committed against God on earth.
I personally don’t believe any of those things. If God is omniscient and omnipotent and the perfect loving parent we all wished we’d had growing up, then none of the above makes any sense. If we are punished forever in hell for a finite amount of sin on earth, that is hardly just and fair. If we are punished forever without the option for redemption, that is a great definition of the word torture…and I doubt that is what God wants for His beloved children. If God somehow reverses our sinful choices of the past so that we instantly become perfect, that interferes with our free will. If God is willing to do that, why wouldn’t He have created us without the choice to go against His will in the first place? So it seems that if God wants us all to freely accept His loving ways for our own, then threats of eternal torture and interfering with our free will are poor ways for a perfect parent to achieve that goal with 100% success.
But then what are we to do with the Biblical references to an eternal hell? Even Jesus mentions such a few times in the NT. I believe this all becomes clear from the timeless perspective of our loving Father. If it is God that indeed set the rules for us and the universe, then perhaps seeing things more from His POV is a better way to understand such infinite concepts. Read on…
From the perspective of God, not limited by time, what is the definition of eternal, everlasting, forever, etc.? That would have to be that whatever He is experiencing at this moment is also where God is at any point in eternity. As hard as that might be to understand fully, it fits well with the Bible saying that God is unchanging. But what of us, the selfish Prodigal Children who decided to go against their Father’s loving ways? The Bible says that such behavior means we are doomed for hell, and I actually agree with that. (I define hell as being separated from the loving mind of God, so hell is an ugly state of mind rather than a torturous location.) But while I believe we have the choice to reject God forever, at any moment we might change our minds, we can always get out of hell...forever. When we do, we can head back on the Prodigal’s path toward home/heaven where He meets us and throws a party in celebration. Let me try a science analogy to illustrate this point better.
If you were to throw a ball into open space and there were no gravitational waves or other vector forces to affect its path, how long would the ball head in the direction you threw it? I think we can all agree it would speed ever-farther away unimpeded forever. But if the ball were remotely controlled and propelled by us, could we not at any moment send a signal to the ball to turn around and come back? So how does this relate to an eternal hell? I’ll sum it up…
I agree with the passages of the Bible that say our selfish behaviors will indeed put us in hell (apart from God in consciousness). If we choose to continue our selfish ways, then hell lasts exactly as long as our selfish choices continue, so hell can indeed be eternal if that is what we choose it to be for us. However, the moment we would desire to change our ways and accept the loving ones God prefers, we always have that choice to make. That would make hell eternal, if we choose it to be, but always reversible (can return to heaven) when we’ve had enough of reaping the selfishness we’ve sown.
I know this is a lousy topic for most Atheists to discuss, but I welcome all comments or inquiries into the logic of my POV once the premises it’s based on are at least temporarily accepted for the sake of discussion.
Is an eternal hell reversible?
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GospelJohn
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Post #2
From the OP:
one big whoppin' snip...
I think a far more plausible explanation, based on reason and logic, and lack of evidence for Hell's existence, is that the concept of Hell is a tool to scare folks into accepting a belief system whose core claims can't be shown to be true.
The concept of Hell is a tool of con men. It is one of the most heinous frauds ever foisted on humanity.
It causes folks to hate others, in that all who don't measure up are seen as demons and various other slanders. It creates a mindset in folks that they alone are deserving of "Heaven", and all who disagree should be dispatched to Hell post haste. It is a dividing, repugnant, ludicrous claim devoid of reason, logic, evidence, and plain ol' common sense.
Hell should be reserved for those who condemn others to it.
one big whoppin' snip...
With respect to Opie, I think this subject is more properly one for Theology, Doctrine & Dogma. It presumes this Hell exists, and it looks at which branch (Catholic or Protestant) of the Christian religion has the accurate take on this Hell.Opie wrote: I know this is a lousy topic for most Atheists to discuss, but I welcome all comments or inquiries into the logic of my POV once the premises it’s based on are at least temporarily accepted for the sake of discussion.
I think a far more plausible explanation, based on reason and logic, and lack of evidence for Hell's existence, is that the concept of Hell is a tool to scare folks into accepting a belief system whose core claims can't be shown to be true.
The concept of Hell is a tool of con men. It is one of the most heinous frauds ever foisted on humanity.
It causes folks to hate others, in that all who don't measure up are seen as demons and various other slanders. It creates a mindset in folks that they alone are deserving of "Heaven", and all who disagree should be dispatched to Hell post haste. It is a dividing, repugnant, ludicrous claim devoid of reason, logic, evidence, and plain ol' common sense.
Hell should be reserved for those who condemn others to it.
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Tired of the Nonsense
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Christanity4ever
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Post #4
Satan is not in hell yet! His 'hood' is earth and his 'crib' is the mind of men doing his job as the deceiver of men. However, if God is correct in his calculations (the future of our reality, those that have lived are living and are going to live before Armageddon) and even universe is correct Satan and only Satan and his angles and those that reject Gods existence a second time will end up in the lake of fire (hell), may God have mercy on their souls....Tired of the Nonsense wrote:Is there a get out of hell free card for Satan?
Revelation 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown
into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast and the false prophet are also;
and they will be tormented day and night
forever and ever.
C4
Post #5
Alright now, guys, play nice. Don't scare off the prey, or you'll miss the meal.
I agree that this discussion/debate should be in Theology & Doctrine.
However, to lend some thought to the original OP, hell does exist in my experience as a dimension within the psyche/soul. It is very real and now, just as heaven is very real and now. We can enter these dimensions through our minds and, of course, evoke, open up, bring down, create - however you want to say it - the heavens and hells, and everything between into reality. Now, I know this is not exactly what John is aiming at in his post, but I will address it in short.
What I mention above is a real experience just as much as clairvoyant dreams are a reality, again, in my life experience. The type of hell joey is talking about is the one that foaming-at-the-mouth-religionists try to scare people with so they'll become a member of their cult, or what have you... you know what I'm saying... I hope.
Anyway, John, you should check out Gnostic Christianity and Kabbalah (I know, I'm plugging here, but what the hell
) for a more sober understanding of these things. Tau Malachi, an author who writes on the Sophian Tradition and Gnostic Christianity, is very adept at expressing the mysteries of heaven and hell, the experience of dying, and yes, the afterlife experience too (which from what I gather is not so much after your brain is completely dead, rather, after your body is lifeless and so to speak, clinically dead, there is an experience in the psyche that occurs - a dream experience reflective of the state of our mind, or soul).
That's all I'll say for now. Read between the lines, and you should get the rest. If not, don't worry - I'll elaborate later... I've got some interesting stories to share.
I agree that this discussion/debate should be in Theology & Doctrine.
However, to lend some thought to the original OP, hell does exist in my experience as a dimension within the psyche/soul. It is very real and now, just as heaven is very real and now. We can enter these dimensions through our minds and, of course, evoke, open up, bring down, create - however you want to say it - the heavens and hells, and everything between into reality. Now, I know this is not exactly what John is aiming at in his post, but I will address it in short.
What I mention above is a real experience just as much as clairvoyant dreams are a reality, again, in my life experience. The type of hell joey is talking about is the one that foaming-at-the-mouth-religionists try to scare people with so they'll become a member of their cult, or what have you... you know what I'm saying... I hope.
Anyway, John, you should check out Gnostic Christianity and Kabbalah (I know, I'm plugging here, but what the hell
) for a more sober understanding of these things. Tau Malachi, an author who writes on the Sophian Tradition and Gnostic Christianity, is very adept at expressing the mysteries of heaven and hell, the experience of dying, and yes, the afterlife experience too (which from what I gather is not so much after your brain is completely dead, rather, after your body is lifeless and so to speak, clinically dead, there is an experience in the psyche that occurs - a dream experience reflective of the state of our mind, or soul).That's all I'll say for now. Read between the lines, and you should get the rest. If not, don't worry
- I'll elaborate later... I've got some interesting stories to share.Now some of you may encounter the devils bargain if you get that far. Any old soul is worth saving at least to a priest, but not every soul is worth buying. So you can take the offer as a compliment.
- William S. Burroughs
There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over. - Frank Zappa
- William S. Burroughs
There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over. - Frank Zappa
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Post #6
The Greek word that we derive eternal from is "aionois", which means nothing like, "endless time", "eternal", "atemporal", etc. it simply refers to duration, as in epoch to epoch, age to age, etc. Both of which have beginnings and endings.From the perspective of God, not limited by time, what is the definition of eternal, everlasting, forever, etc.?
This is just a translation problem.
A quick tip, get a "Companion Bible", you'll love it.
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jgh7
Post #7
With respect to the OP:
I agree that your version of Hell seems more fair and productive, while an inescapable Hell that lasts forever seems senseless and extremely brutal. However, this is just your interpretation. Do you get to pick and choose which eternals mean forever and which ones mean temporary or subject to change? What version of eternal is Heaven?
Would the writers of the bible and perhaps Jesus himself mislead people to this great of an extent? If Hell really was a place that one could leave from if they changed their ways, then wouldn't that have been mentioned somewhere, and wouldn't Christians have started out believing it that way? Or was it Jesus' intention to fool the people into thinking hell would last forever? I don't think the Jesus of the bible worked that way. He may have spoke in parables at times, but he never purposely tried to deceive.
I'm more inclined to view eternal as meaning literally lasting forever.
I agree that your version of Hell seems more fair and productive, while an inescapable Hell that lasts forever seems senseless and extremely brutal. However, this is just your interpretation. Do you get to pick and choose which eternals mean forever and which ones mean temporary or subject to change? What version of eternal is Heaven?
Would the writers of the bible and perhaps Jesus himself mislead people to this great of an extent? If Hell really was a place that one could leave from if they changed their ways, then wouldn't that have been mentioned somewhere, and wouldn't Christians have started out believing it that way? Or was it Jesus' intention to fool the people into thinking hell would last forever? I don't think the Jesus of the bible worked that way. He may have spoke in parables at times, but he never purposely tried to deceive.
I'm more inclined to view eternal as meaning literally lasting forever.
Post #8
Moderator Action
It has been suggested this thread would more appropriately be placed in the Theology Forum, and I think this makes some sense. I am going to move it there with a shadow in C&A.
gospeljohn: If you want to make a case for moving it back in the C&A forum, go ahead and send me a PM.
It has been suggested this thread would more appropriately be placed in the Theology Forum, and I think this makes some sense. I am going to move it there with a shadow in C&A.
gospeljohn: If you want to make a case for moving it back in the C&A forum, go ahead and send me a PM.
" . . . the line separating good and evil passes, not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart . . . ." Alexander Solzhenitsyn
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Goat
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Post #9
From a historical point of view, pointing out that the meaning of 'eternal' has changed over the centuries is valid point. However, I don't see the concept of hell as being valid to begin with. It is not really in the old testament. Revelation sounds like an acid trip to me, and the only other statement would be the reference to the 'lake of fire', which is a concept from the Egyptian book of the dead, not Judaism.jgh7 wrote:With respect to the OP:
I agree that your version of Hell seems more fair and productive, while an inescapable Hell that lasts forever seems senseless and extremely brutal. However, this is just your interpretation. Do you get to pick and choose which eternals mean forever and which ones mean temporary or subject to change? What version of eternal is Heaven?
Would the writers of the bible and perhaps Jesus himself mislead people to this great of an extent? If Hell really was a place that one could leave from if they changed their ways, then wouldn't that have been mentioned somewhere, and wouldn't Christians have started out believing it that way? Or was it Jesus' intention to fool the people into thinking hell would last forever? I don't think the Jesus of the bible worked that way. He may have spoke in parables at times, but he never purposely tried to deceive.
I'm more inclined to view eternal as meaning literally lasting forever.
There is no place in the OT where 'the pit' can not be referencing 'the grave'.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
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Post #10
As goat makes very clear, hell is a post-biblical (i.e., post-Torah) concept. If you can get your hands on it, Brichto's "Kin, Cult and Afterlife: A Biblical. Complex", HUCA 44 (1973), is very informative -- not to mention serving as a great commentary on Ruth.
