Messianic Prophesy

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:24 am

Scotracer wrote:I just find it odd how Jewish scholars, those who know the OT the best of anyone, don't see it being a prediction of Jesus. Can you account for this?

Without the New Testament, how much of the prophesies of the Messiah would lead a believer to accept that Jesus was the promised Messiah? Be specific.

Jonah · Post by **Jonah** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:42 pm

Some would poke a hole in your question. Why should we assume that it is universally agreed that there was a promise of one "the" messiah?

Messianic expectation came after the texts used to support it among Jews, and of course later Christians.

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:04 pm

Jonah wrote:Some would poke a hole in your question. Why should we assume that it is universally agreed that there was a promise of one "the" messiah?

Messianic expectation came after the texts used to support it among Jews, and of course later Christians.

Welcome back.

What also must be pointed out is that the concept of the Messiah in Judaism is vastly different that the concept of "The Messiah" is Christianity.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:54 am

goat wrote:What also must be pointed out is that the concept of the Messiah in Judaism is vastly different that the concept of "The Messiah" is Christianity.

If this is so, then what happened? Did the Christians distort the teachings of the Hebrew scriptures to fit prophesy or have the Jews been misinterpreting their own revelations from God?

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:42 am

McCulloch wrote:
goat wrote:What also must be pointed out is that the concept of the Messiah in Judaism is vastly different that the concept of "The Messiah" is Christianity.
If this is so, then what happened? Did the Christians distort the teachings of the Hebrew scriptures to fit prophesy or have the Jews been misinterpreting their own revelations from God?

There is a contradiction there, and it is not up to Christians to tell the Jewish faith on what their messiah should be. Other than that, Christians have the right to believe what they want.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:56 am

goat wrote:Other than that, Christians have the right to believe what they want.

Including that their faith is the correct interpretation of the Jewish scriptures and that the Jews have misinterpreted their own scriptures?

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:18 am

McCulloch wrote:
goat wrote:Other than that, Christians have the right to believe what they want.
Including that their faith is the correct interpretation of the Jewish scriptures and that the Jews have misinterpreted their own scriptures?

The Jews have been dealing with those claims for 2000 years, and they probably will have to deal with it for another 2000.

Jonah · Post by **Jonah** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:03 am

Well stated goat. Thank you.

Yes. I am curious. McCulloch, why would you entertain (seriously?) a possible assertion that Jews have misinterpreted their own revelation?

Goat is correct. It is an astounding primary component of Jewish existence that Jews are often told by non-Jews that they aren't doing Judaism correctly.

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:37 am

McCulloch wrote:
goat wrote:Other than that, Christians have the right to believe what they want.
Including that their faith is the correct interpretation of the Jewish scriptures and that the Jews have misinterpreted their own scriptures?

One way and only one of many practices was to read the scriptures (writings) and find secondary meanings or second prophesies.
I am not sure if there is a "misinterpreted" when it comes to esoteric interpretations.
But it seems the early Christians believed in Jesus and then went looking for him in the scriptures. In fact the Gospel Of Mark seems to be made up from largely stories from the Greek translations and has little historical value when it comes to any historical Jesus we might be looking for.
It looks more like the Gentile Christians were reinterpreting scripture because they believed Jesus was there not because Jesus was there and sure enough they found him in every passage even when it didn't make sense.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:39 am

Jonah wrote:Yes. I am curious. McCulloch, why would you entertain (seriously?) a possible assertion that Jews have misinterpreted their own revelation?

Goat is correct. It is an astounding primary component of Jewish existence that Jews are often told by non-Jews that they aren't doing Judaism correctly.

To start, I do not believe that the Jews have misinterpreted the scriptures which are the product of their own community and tradition. However, if Christianity is true, then it also must be true that the Jews really have misinterpreted the Jewish scriptures. As an atheist, I believe Christianity to be untrue, thus I have no problems with this.

I believe that historical analysis would show that originally, Christianity began as a new religion. But, in order to gain credibility with the Roman society, which valued things with ancient roots and were suspicious of novelty, the early Christians attempted to graft Jewish mythology into their religion. Their attempts were only partially successful and the continued existence of the Jews posed a constant reminder of the duplicity and threat to their new found credibility. This is then the source and origin of unwarranted and extreme animosity towards the Jews in Christian theology, history and culture, known as antisemitism.