Should Emprecatory Prayers Be Liable?

[JoeyKnothead]

From the article here.

A former military lawyer who served in the Reagan White House is suing a Dallas-based religious group for allegedly inciting harm upon him through prayers, The Dallas Morning News reports.

Question for debate:

1- Should those who pray such prayers be considered as inciting violence?
-----------------------------------
My contention is such should be considered as inciting violence. Those legally described "acts of God" that happen to the target should be actionable against those doing the praying.

[micatala]

From the article here.

A former military lawyer who served in the Reagan White House is suing a Dallas-based religious group for allegedly inciting harm upon him through prayers, The Dallas Morning News reports.

Question for debate:

1- Should those who pray such prayers be considered as inciting violence?
-----------------------------------
My contention is such should be considered as inciting violence. Those legally described "acts of God" that happen to the target should be actionable against those doing the praying.

Good question, and not one that I think is easy to answer.

I do tend towards the view that, taking freedom of speech and religion into account, this is a bit over the top.

In fact, if one takes the context of the Psalm into account, the pastor could be accused of abusing scripture.

The Psalm depicts David praying against one or more of his enemies, described thusly.

2 for wicked and deceitful men
have opened their mouths against me;
they have spoken against me with lying tongues.

3 With words of hatred they surround me;
they attack me without cause.

4 In return for my friendship they accuse me,
but I am a man of prayer.

5 They repay me evil for good,
and hatred for my friendship.

16 For he never thought of doing a kindness,
but hounded to death the poor
and the needy and the brokenhearted.

I wonder if the person praying this could substantiate that either Weinstein or Lynn are wicked and deceitful, or are liars. Did Klingenschmitt actually ever make any attempt to befriend either of this gentlemen, and was he repaid evil for the effort? Have Lynn and Weinstein hounded to death the poor and the needy and the broken-hearted?


Now, I do not know the larger context of the Psalm or who David is referring to, but there are a number of Psalms of David that mention people (King Saul for instance) who are trying to kill him. I am not sure if that is the case in this Psalm, but I would at least have a little more sympathy for Klingenschmitt if Weinstein and Lynn had a contract out on his life or something.


.

[Solon]

Question for debate:

1- Should those who pray such prayers be considered as inciting violence?
-----------------------------------
My contention is such should be considered as inciting violence. Those legally described "acts of God" that happen to the target should be actionable against those doing the praying.

There are two things required for a crime under US law, mens rea and actus reus. The people praying either believe in the efficacy of prayer in effecting change in the world or really enjoy spending time doing things they don't think are effective. If they do think prayer is effective, as I am inclined to believe, then they certainly have the mens rea, they are in fact doing something they think will bring harm. The actus reus may seem a little shaky, but like those fellows who tried to blow up a synagogue in NYC with something they thought was plastic explosives but had been swapped out by the FBI for something harmless, these folks can be held accountable for attempted murder. That they chose a particularly ineffective method for their murder, or really murder for hire (please kill this guy and we'll praise you name), doesn't really matter. It is as if someone tried to kill a man with a gun, but loaded blanks because he didn't know better. Incompetence at crime is not a shield from prosecution for it.

[Vladd44]

This is great.

I wish people would find as many ways as possible to sue churches, pastors and other religious leaders.

Just because a man is standing behind a piece of wood on sunday morning with a group of people who didn't know better than to sleep late should not protect them from the vileness of their words.

Sue them out of business. I have long advocated suing churches for what comes across their pulpits. I have heard some hateful things in my past, it would be nice to see the people that utter them pay a price.

The good thing is that if this tactic were to become widespread, you would not even need to win to be effective. Many churches barely survive financially... just push them to the tipping point with litigation.

I have been considering trying to get a group together to do this by getting access to as many sermons as possible. Some easy targets would be those railing against homosexuals, non believers and political opponents.

The political side could also help take away tax free status that churches so undeservedly have.

[McCulloch]

The political side could also help take away tax free status that churches so undeservedly have.

I have often felt that granting religions a different status under our tax laws than other charities or non-profit orgs, is a violation of the separation of church and state. If I decide to set up a church and wish to have the tax benefits of being a religion, the government must decide whether my religion is legitimate or bogus. That is not a role that government should be empowered to do. The solution? Rewrite the laws so that there is no special treatment for religious organizations. If it is a charity, then give it charitable status. If it is a non-profit, then treat it as a non-profit. But the time is long past where the claim of being a religion should confer special tax status.

[JoeyKnothead]

The political side could also help take away tax free status that churches so undeservedly have.

I have often felt that granting religions a different status under our tax laws than other charities or non-profit orgs, is a violation of the separation of church and state. If I decide to set up a church and wish to have the tax benefits of being a religion, the government must decide whether my religion is legitimate or bogus. That is not a role that government should be empowered to do. The solution? Rewrite the laws so that there is no special treatment for religious organizations. If it is a charity, then give it charitable status. If it is a non-profit, then treat it as a non-profit. But the time is long past where the claim of being a religion should confer special tax status.

Well said. I see no reason for the government to determine what constitutes a proper religious belief, or to decide which of these religious beliefs deserve a special status.

[Miles]

While a prayer to god asking him to bring woe upon someone is hardly the basis for a lawsuit, a prayer convincing others to do so, as described below, is actionable.

"Weinstein, 54, said his family has received death threats, had a swastika emblazoned on their home in New Mexico, animal carcasses left on their doorstep and feces thrown at the house."

source

[JoeyKnothead]

While a prayer to god asking him to bring woe upon someone is hardly the basis for a lawsuit, a prayer convincing others to do so, as described below, is actionable.

"Weinstein, 54, said his family has received death threats, had a swastika emblazoned on their home in New Mexico, animal carcasses left on their doorstep and feces thrown at the house."

source

This is really what I'm getting at. As a young atheist in a small Southern town I was faced with much the same. Though I can't directly tie my experience to such prayers, it is my contention one praying (in the public of a church) is inciting this violence whether they pray to a god, or actually ask a parishioner to carry out such actions.

I hear often such as, "The preacher prayed and god moved in me". In these cases it is my contention the preacher is guilty of a crime. Further, such prayers that "result" in an "act of God" should be liable as well, to discourage humans, or gods, from harming others.