An Irrational God Is An Authentic God

[Jonah]

If God were "rational", then God would simply be a projection of humanity...and maybe that's all some want.

But the classic God of the Judeo-Christian tradition is Irrational. There is God....and humanity is Not-God.

[Metatron]

If God were "rational", then God would simply be a projection of humanity...and maybe that's all some want.

But the classic God of the Judeo-Christian tradition is Irrational. There is God....and humanity is Not-God.

Might need some clarification of this point. God (especially the OT variant) seems a lot like a projection of man. He displays the full range of emotions both positive and negative and, in fact, acts a whole lot like some sort of desert tribal chieftain writ large. (Not a coincidence I believe.) God is irrational, as you say, but generally speaking so is mankind.

[Jonah]

Irrational isn't the same as being nuts.

Humanity is rational and logical when it chooses. Irrationality is simply not playing by those rules. And the God of the Judeo-Christan tradition doesn't play the game.

There's a lot in the Bible. Of course some of it is anthropomorphic. But, overall, the stronger and unique characteristic of the Judeo-Christian God is a certain wild joker wtf uncontrollable screw with you kind of God.

Grace is not pretty...with an Irrational God. Made Hosea marry a whore.

[Metatron]

Irrational isn't the same as being nuts.

Humanity is rational and logical when it chooses. Irrationality is simply not playing by those rules. And the God of the Judeo-Christan tradition doesn't play the game.

There's a lot in the Bible. Of course some of it is anthropomorphic. But, overall, the stronger and unique characteristic of the Judeo-Christian God is a certain wild joker wtf uncontrollable screw with you kind of God.

Grace is not pretty...with an Irrational God. Made Hosea marry a whore.

The key here is the statement that humanity is rational and logical when it chooses. Often man does not make this choice and is often irrational. Still we are not arguing for a different interpretation of the biblical God as far as I can tell. YHWH exhibits the full range of emotions and prejudices of the men who worship (created?) him and, being a deity, acts without restraint. He does not have to play with any rules and can act as irrational as desired with no penalty.

[GentleDove]

If God were "rational", then God would simply be a projection of humanity...and maybe that's all some want.

But the classic God of the Judeo-Christian tradition is Irrational. There is God....and humanity is Not-God.

Why do you believe that if God were rational, then He would simply be a projection of humanity? You seem to me to be assuming that humanity is the standard of rationality in the universe.

The statement, "There is God...and humanity is Not-God" is certainly one that Christians would agree with. However, while Christians believe in the creature-Creator distinctive and that there is no divinity in human beings, it is a mark of the Christian worldview that human beings are made "in the image of God." Part of that image is rationality.

Because, in the Christian worldview, God is the standard of rationality and His human creatures simply reflect that (albeit imperfectly and in a limited way). In this way the Christian worldview turns the OP worldview upside down.

You seem to be saying that if the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition can be proven to be irrational, then He actually does exist because that would show that he wasn’t the projection of rational humanity. Therefore, the unwritten conclusion is that Christians "must" admit that God either doesn't exist, or He exists but is irrational. However, this ignores the fact that in the Christian worldview, God has made man in His rational image. In fact, if the Christian God didn't exist, then rationality wouldn't exist.

[Metatron]

In fact, if the Christian God didn't exist, then rationality wouldn't exist.

I would be interested in hearing why you think this is true.

[GentleDove]

In fact, if the Christian God didn't exist, then rationality wouldn't exist.

I would be interested in hearing why you think this is true.

Every human being attempts to account for or make sense of the world around him. If he denies that the Christian God exists, then he must account some other way for the existence of life, rationality, morality, diversity in unity, and even mathematical concepts.

However, if he denies the Christian God, then he must 1) look for another religion (which I believe are all self-contradictory, don’t explain human experience, or are otherwise irrational); or 2) embrace atheism, which is irrational because he will be driven to believe that rationality came from irrationality, order from chaos, intelligence from non-intelligence, life from non-life, and morality from non-morality; or 3) arrive at skepticism, that no one can know anything anyway and live with contradictions and just stop thinking about it.

In attempting to explain the world while denying the Christian God, he’s driven to irrationality. Therefore, the existence of rationality only makes sense if the Christian God exists.

[Jrosemary]

However, if he denies the Christian God, then he must 1) look for another religion (which I believe are all self-contradictory, don’t explain human experience, or are otherwise irrational)

Interesting. I majored in Comparative Religion, History and Classics. I also worked as a research assistant/editor for an author writing on religious pluralism for Oxford Press. I've had ample experience studying world religions--and yet I would never be so confident as to blithely dismiss religions other than my own as "irrational," et cetera. I don't begin to have that sort of knowledge or experience with them.

What's made you so confident as far as other relgiions go? What are your credentials concerning them? I'm anxious to hear an in-depth explanation on each from you and an explanation as to what you find self-contradictory and/or irrational about them. Oh, and would you spell out why each doesn't explain the human condition?

I suppose we should stick with the major world religions so your posts don't run too long. Let's go with an in-depth look at:

1. Judaism
2. Islam
3. Hinduism (including at least an overview, please, of the three major strains of
Vedantic philosophy. If you want to argue they should be considered separately from Hinduism, I won't object.)
4. Buddhism
5. Taoism (Philosophic and Religious)
6. Confucianism
7. Sikhism
8. Shinto
9. Baha'i
10. One of the modern Pagan religions--let's say Wicca to keep it simple

That leaves out Native American or Amerindian religions, I know, as well as numerous others. Well, I can't say this list is perfect.

And, of course, to be fair to each religion on the list, you'll have to go over the different strains of them and philosophies within them. (You might, for all I know, find Orthodox Judaism less irrational than Reform; and Rambam less irrational than Rashi--although I'd question anyone applying the term 'irrational' to Rambam.) It's a lot of work, I know. But your contention about other religions is so far reaching that there's no help for it. You'll just have to be thorough.

Oh--and in addition to all that, I suppose you'll have to compare each to Christianity to show that Christianity is more rational. But that won't help if you don't explain each religion in depth first so we know why you think they're irrational, self-contradictory, etc.

Wow--the more I think about this, the more I'm astounded by your dismissal of other religions. I've read Vatican pronouncements like Nostra Aetate and authors like Roger Haight, so I know there are distinguished Christians who disagree with such a dismissal.

Well, at least this list is a start, and I look forward to hearing your views and your credentials on all of them.

Oh--one last thing. If you think this is too far off topic, feel free to start a new one.

[McCulloch]

In fact, if the Christian God didn't exist, then rationality wouldn't exist.

I too am confounded by this claim. Is it your contention that God supersedes rationality. If so, then you cannot, by definition, discus the existence of God rationally. If not, then rationality could exist apart from the Christian God.

Every human being attempts to account for or make sense of the world around him. If he denies that the Christian God exists, then he must account some other way for the existence of life, rationality, morality, diversity in unity, and even mathematical concepts.

Humans are really good at finding patterns and attributing intentionality. This trait has served us rather well. However, the honest truth is that we, for the most part, cannot account for the existence of life, rationality, morality and mathematical axioms. Long before we think about the origins of such things, we accept that they exist. When we need to, we invent Gods to explain the unexplained. The Christian god is not any more or less rational than the other supernatural explanations.

However, if he denies the Christian God, then he must

1. look for another religion (which I believe are all self-contradictory, don’t explain human experience, or are otherwise irrational); or
2. embrace atheism, which is irrational because he will be driven to believe that rationality came from irrationality, order from chaos, intelligence from non-intelligence, life from non-life, and morality from non-morality; or
3. arrive at skepticism, that no one can know anything anyway and live with contradictions and just stop thinking about it.

With regard to the above

1. I agree, replacing one irrationality with another does seem pointless.
2. Please support your claims that
   1. rationality did not come from irrationality,
   2. order cannot emerge from chaos,
   3. intelligence is not an evolutionary emergent quality
   4. life did not come from non-life, and
   5. morality is anything more than a useful human adaptation to our environment
3. Your definition of skepticism is wrong. Skeptics accept that certain things are unknown and perhaps even unknowable, yet we do not necessarily stop thinking about them. The ones who have stopped thinking about them are the ones who believe that they have the divinely approved answers which cannot be questioned.

In attempting to explain the world while denying the Christian God, he’s driven to irrationality. Therefore, the existence of rationality only makes sense if the Christian God exists.

In attempting to explain the world while accepting the Christian God, one is driven to irrationality, the problem of evil, the Euthyphro dilemma, Trinity, the nonsense of calling the substitutional sacrifice a just thing. Therefore, the existence of rationality only makes sense if the Christian God does not exist.

Jrosemary: wonderful post, but you left out Deism.

[GentleDove]

However, if he denies the Christian God, then he must 1) look for another religion (which I believe are all self-contradictory, don’t explain human experience, or are otherwise irrational)

Interesting. I majored in Comparative Religion, History and Classics. I also worked as a research assistant/editor for an author writing on religious pluralism for Oxford Press. I've had ample experience studying world religions--and yet I would never be so confident as to blithely dismiss religions other than my own as "irrational," et cetera. I don't begin to have that sort of knowledge or experience with them.

What's made you so confident as far as other relgiions go? What are your credentials concerning them? I'm anxious to hear an in-depth explanation on each from you and an explanation as to what you find self-contradictory and/or irrational about them. Oh, and would you spell out why each doesn't explain the human condition?

I suppose we should stick with the major world religions so your posts don't run too long. Let's go with an in-depth look at:

1. Judaism
2. Islam
3. Hinduism (including at least an overview, please, of the three major strains of
Vedantic philosophy. If you want to argue they should be considered separately from Hinduism, I won't object.)
4. Buddhism
5. Taoism (Philosophic and Religious)
6. Confucianism
7. Sikhism
8. Shinto
9. Baha'i
10. One of the modern Pagan religions--let's say Wicca to keep it simple

That leaves out Native American or Amerindian religions, I know, as well as numerous others. Well, I can't say this list is perfect.

And, of course, to be fair to each religion on the list, you'll have to go over the different strains of them and philosophies within them. (You might, for all I know, find Orthodox Judaism less irrational than Reform; and Rambam less irrational than Rashi--although I'd question anyone applying the term 'irrational' to Rambam.) It's a lot of work, I know. But your contention about other religions is so far reaching that there's no help for it. You'll just have to be thorough.

Oh--and in addition to all that, I suppose you'll have to compare each to Christianity to show that Christianity is more rational. But that won't help if you don't explain each religion in depth first so we know why you think they're irrational, self-contradictory, etc.

Wow--the more I think about this, the more I'm astounded by your dismissal of other religions. I've read Vatican pronouncements like Nostra Aetate and authors like Roger Haight, so I know there are distinguished Christians who disagree with such a dismissal.

Well, at least this list is a start, and I look forward to hearing your views and your credentials on all of them.

Oh--one last thing. If you think this is too far off topic, feel free to start a new one.

I’m not nearly as qualified as you are, Jrosemary. I don’t think I’m going to be able to post as lengthy and detailed a reply as you have assigned me due to time constraints. However, I will start a new thread and type up posts on this topic as time allows.