The Bible and Minority Rights. Gays and Women.

[micatala]

We have a thread in C&A regarding Christianity and Women's rights, several in fact.

A very recent one. http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=10796

This one started lst November. Greatest I Am quotes from I Timothy.

Timothy

2:11 Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection.
2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.
2:13 For Adam was first formed; then Eve.
2:14 And Adam was not seduced; but the woman being seduced, was in the transgression.
2:15 Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

Here is one defense of Christianity by a member of the Fundamentalist group.

I believe that women are equal to men. I also think that women can teach, hold authority over men, etc. I understand and have read what the Bible says on this subject.

I believe that there are principles under every commandment. These principles, when reading the Bible, are what I take away. Sure the Bible says clearly that women are under men, but that was in a letter to a church in a very different culture and time. Our culture today doesn't have anything close to that point of view. Back then, women were worth very little. It was disrespectful for a woman to have her head uncovered, or to talk in church. After they became Christians, women realized they were free in Christ, and it was true, but Paul was saying that we should not be a stumbling block for others. These women were hindering the gospel--not helping it. He was saying, in essence, "Be respectful! Don't divide the church!"

In our culture, saying that women are under men would hinder the gospel. If God wrote us a letter, I do not think he would tell us that women are under men, because that would definitely alienate people. I know it made me angry the first time I read it. However, now I believe that the principles need to be taken away: Don't divide the church, and respect one another.

Here, the case is made that we can ignore the biblical teaching because of a wider principle, another biblical teaching, takes precedence. Specifically, we can ignore the biblical teachings that consider women second class citizens because, in our culture, doing so would hinder the spread of the gospel.



From later in that same thread, here is another explanation which seeks to deflect the actual teachings of the Bible, again by trying to make the case that another teaching or principle takes precedence.

catalyst wrote:

Quote:
Why go off on the bible when there's countries out there who treat women worse?

Well biblical concepts were the introduction OF this chauvanistic, mysogynist attitude.. THAT's why.

The WHY men would be chauvinistic and mysogynistic is because they selectively interpret the Bible with a narrowsightedness that erroneously justify their "lording" and "ruling" over women. We expect this kind of "chip of the old block." Sons of Adam took after the first Adam who stood by and allowed his wife to fall into the corruptive deception of an enemy stranger, then freely, willingly joined her in taking a bite of the yummy fruit and later cowardly used fingerpointing to lay the blame on her.

But the New Adam, Jesus Christ, taught them the servant leadership of washing each other's feet; when she's thirsty give her water...especially the kind of water to satisfy her to the point she'll never be thirsty again...love and respect her as He, Christ the New Adam, loves, and He stretched out His arms on the cross and died to show how men should love their wives.

If all men should love their wives as Christ loves, it matters not who is in the position of leadership...for He is there to serve and to love. The least shall be first, the first shall serve the least.

But as is, men continue to fail in imitating after the New Adam and continue to live in the Dark Age of the old Adam. They continue to lord and rule and abuse their women, and so the struggle for equality of the sexes and human rights in humanity continue to the end of times as long as there are men still yoked to the sins of Adam....and neglect to learn the Truth that Christ teaches to set them free.

Now, I do not necessarily disagree with the notion that some biblical teachings should take precedence over others, especially as I don't consider the Bible to be one self-consistent work. I do not subscribe to the notion that today's Christians need to follow archaic teachings that were given to ancient cultures in a different context.



I also do not want to oversimply and imply that those quoted above are generally representative of Christian views, even conservative Christian views.



However, I would like to suggest the following questions for debate:



How would members assess the biblical passages concerning women with those on gays or homosexuality?


Are the wider principles used to allow for equal rights for women also applicable to the issue of homosexuality?


Are the apologetics offered by Christians to support women's equality despite biblical teachings biblically supportable?


If these apologetic interpretations are valid, would this not also mean that similar apologetics on the behalf of gay rights should be considered just as valid?



To the extent that some Christians speak against equal rights for gays and yet accept equal rights for women, is this not an inconsistent position?


If Christians can allow "today's culture" to be a factor on how we interpret the Bible vis-a-vis women's rights, why not for gay rights?

[LOSTinWONDER]

I find judging others is something that tastes really sweet in the mouth but its bitter in your stomach and ruins you through and through. Any so called Christian who points a finger in accusation or categorizes people into social groups as a means to treat them differently, is an anti-Christian spirit.

All Chrisitans understand that everyone sins and everyone deserves death for how they live their life. No one has an excuse! So if you are Gay, a woman or whatever, this makes ZERO difference. We all do things which God does not approve of, it is not as if when you become a Christian that you gain amnesia from all your sinful desire and thoughts. What a load of rubbish! We learn how to deal with our sin, and it humbles us.

Unfortunately for Christianity, there are extremist. Just like extremist Muslims blow themselves up, this of course does not highlight what the Muslim religion is about at all. The same applies for Christianity, any fear mongering, judgemental Christian is not Chrisitan at all, unless they admit that what they say is sinful and they cannot help it, but they don't! They judge people and encourage others to do so as well!

[Mere_Christian]

I find judging others is something that tastes really sweet in the mouth but its bitter in your stomach and ruins you through and through. Any so called Christian who points a finger in accusation or categorizes people into social groups as a means to treat them differently, is an anti-Christian spirit.

From where do you have the right to that judgmental position?

I, as a Christian, am free to judge anyone and anything at anytime. I just better make sure I'm not doing what I am judging as being wrong.

All Chrisitans understand that everyone sins and everyone deserves death for how they live their life.

You must not have heard of liberal theology.

No one has an excuse! So if you are Gay, a woman or whatever, this makes ZERO difference.

"Gay" is a neologism for homosexual. The Apostolic testimony is clear that homosexuality needs to be avoided for Christians.

We all do things which God does not approve of, it is not as if when you become a Christian that you gain amnesia from all your sinful desire and thoughts. What a load of rubbish! We learn how to deal with our sin, and it humbles us.

True. We also learn that it is a worse sin to encourage and/or make others sin. To celebrate sin takes one out of the community of fellowship of believers.

Unfortunately for Christianity, there are extremist.

Unfortunately for extremists, Jesus and the Apostles detailed their coming into the Church. Side by side with those that seduce others to sin and who celebrate and encourage sin and sinners.

Just like extremist Muslims blow themselves up, this of course does not highlight what the Muslim religion is about at all.

It details the history of the Muslim religion. It was started by war and continues on that path.

The same applies for Christianity, any fear mongering, judgemental Christian is not Chrisitan at all,

Christians have great reasons for fearing gay culture and gay activism. It is called raising children and loving your brothers and sisters in Christ who are targeted, seduced and encouraged to engage in homosexuality by those living gay culture.

. . . unless they admit that what they say is sinful and they cannot help it, but they don't!

Opposing gay culture and gay activism is not sinful. It is the embodiment of loving your brothers and sisters in Christ to keep them "out" of gay life.

They judge people and encourage others to do so as well!

It takes a judgment of what is right and what is wrong to become a Christian. It takes defining what is right and what is wrong to stay a healthy part of the body of Christ. Judging gay behavior as antithetical to Christian life is a correct judgment to make and to proclaim.

The Apostolic testimony does this with no excuses.

[LOSTinWONDER]

From where do you have the right to that judgmental position?

I, as a Christian, am free to judge anyone and anything at anytime. I just better make sure I'm not doing what I am judging as being wrong.

Thou shalt not judge. Judge not unless you want to be judged. These saying echo through the New Testament.

All Chrisitans understand that everyone sins and everyone deserves death for how they live their life.

You must not have heard of liberal theology.

Well I should have been more exact in what I said, all TRUE Christians. But now someone will say, define the true Chrisitan. I have seen churches whom the members all cast judgement upon others, all their actions are underhanded, secretive and behind peoples backs. In the true Chrisitan Church there is none of this backstabbing and judgement of other peoples failings. It is hyppocritical to say the least!

Christians have great reasons for fearing gay culture and gay activism. It is called raising children and loving your brothers and sisters in Christ who are targeted, seduced and encouraged to engage in homosexuality by those living gay culture.

Raising children? That has nothing to do with a relationship. One is not blessed more or less by having children. If there is a heterosexual couple who cannot have children then is this relationship useless and devoid of all that makes love? Raising children to follow Christ is a hope and dream but ultimately, each and every person makes that decision on their own. It is why I laugh when I see baby's get christened. How can they make that decision?

I have not seen any Christian who has argued the point that we have the right to judge people and take the speck out of their eyes before our own. I do not know any True Christian who thinks that they are without sin because of their relationship with God. Even though this thinking exists,t hose who think this way are delusional. The bible does not give points for sin, so how can we tell which sin is worse than the other? How can you tell that your church member isn't harvesting secretive sin within them? Why is it important to reveal their sin and segregate them? It is not, it is not a loving church if people behave this way, you are not loving your enemy, you are telling them to change their ways or leave and be banished. What arrogance is this!

[East of Eden]

Equality of worth in the Bible is not identity of role. There is even a hierarchy within the Trinity itself.

[OpenedUp]

Equality of worth in the Bible is not identity of role. There is even a hierarchy within the Trinity itself.

So you believe that men and women are equal, but given different roles?

[East of Eden]

Equality of worth in the Bible is not identity of role. There is even a hierarchy within the Trinity itself.

So you believe that men and women are equal, but given different roles?

Yes.

[OpenedUp]

Really?

You wives will submit to your husbands as you do to the Lord. For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of his body, the church; he gave his life to be her Savior. As the church submits to Christ, so you wives must submit to your husbands in everything. (Ephesians 5:22-24)

Wives, be subordinate to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord. (Colossians 3:18)


As in all the churches of the holy ones, women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church. (1 Corinthians 14:33-35)

Woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent (1 Timothy 2:11-12)

Give no woman power over you to trample upon your dignity. (Sirach 9:2)

3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head. (1 Corinthians 11:3-10)


THAT sounds like equailty to you?

[kayky]

Equality of worth in the Bible is not identity of role. There is even a hierarchy within the Trinity itself.

So you believe that men and women are equal, but given different roles?

Yes.

Separate but equal? Does that sound familiar to anyone? The irony of this is that EofE used "states' rights" on another thread to support his views against gay marriage.

[JoeyKnothead]

Equality of worth in the Bible is not identity of role. There is even a hierarchy within the Trinity itself.

So you believe that men and women are equal, but given different roles?

Yes.

Separate but equal? Does that sound familiar to anyone? The irony of this is that EofE used "states' rights" on another thread to support his views against gay marriage.

I noticed it too. Sounds very similar to the oppressive language of the South. I can only hope such antiquated ideologies are swept aside as folks realize oppressing others is not a good thing to be doing.