Is hell eternal or not?

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scorpia
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Is hell eternal or not?

Post #1

Post by scorpia »

Just a couple of references;
2 Thess 1 : 7-9 : and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed in heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power .
This verse mentions the final punishment as an everlasting destruction....
Jude 7 : In a similair way, Sodom and Gomorrah and teh surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire
This verse is similair
Rev 20 :14-15 : The death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
This verse however mentions the punishment as a "second death"

Perhaps the latter verse doesn't negate that the "second death" is eternal. But then how is death eternal? Does it mean a long eternal period in a process of dying? Or does it mean a person will for the rest of eternity be dead? Is hell eternal or not?
'Belief is never giving up.'- Random footy adverisement.

Sometimes even a wise man is wrong. Sometimes even a fool is right.

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Post #91

Post by Goat »

Madeline wrote:
goat wrote:
Madeline wrote:My lack of discernment? :whistle:

FYI, that passage in Daniel is "prophetic" which means the truth to its meaning does not change according to time.
joer wrote:The understanding of quotes from the Bible, translations of the bible and the interpretations form the Bible, have constantly changed over time.
First it was "THE TRUTH IN OUR TIME" and the "truth in Daniels time" somehow changes the context of scripture. Now its bible translations! :roll:

Daniel 12:2
  • (NIV) Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
  • (NAS) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
  • (NLT) Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace.
  • (KJV) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
  • (NKJV) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
  • (ESV) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
  • (DARBY) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt.
Yeah, that's really hard to understand! :roll:

Where does it say in Revelation 21 that the Lake of Fire is somehow no longer in existence? The Lake of fire will remain since it was "prepared" for the devil and his angels, and all those who rebel against God.

Matthew 25:34—Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Matthew 25:41—Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Both "the Kingdom of God" and "the Lake of Fire" are two places which were "prepared" in advance by God. Which means that the Lake of Fire will exist for all of Eternity as with the Kingdom of God. When God says that he makes "All things new", if we take that in a literal sense than that would mean that even the Kingdom of God would cease to exist. The Lake of Fire and the Kingom of God are eternal. The context is crystal clear, unless you don't want to see it or don't see it for some reason.

Love,
Madeline
Well, it says 'many' , not all. And says 'Life', not 'cast into hell'.. just shame and contempt.

Tell me, why are you associating the 'everlasting shame and contempt' with the 'lake of fire'.

And matthew says that the 'fire' is everlasting, not someone staying there.
goat, you're not making any sense. Who said anything about "all"? Why are people making that passage more complicated then it should be? It's soooooo simple! ;) God doesn't expect us all to be geniuses and figure out some hidden context. ;)

Who said anything about "all" people being condemned? not me! And it makes not sense for the fire to be everlasting whilst there is nobody there.

Mark 9:44—Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Notice how it says "their" worm dieth not? So the person who is condemned doesn't suffer eternal torment and yet "their" worm for some weird reason doesn't die. Context, context, context, it is sooooo simple. If this still doesn't make any sense to you than there is nothing more I can do here on this thread. :hug:

Love,
Madeline
But, what is the CONTEXT of Mark?

It seems you are taking a whole bunch of different pieces from various different scriptures, and trying to meld the togather, despite the fact that they have no relationship with each other.

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Post #92

Post by Madeline »

goat wrote:
Madeline wrote:
goat wrote:
Madeline wrote:My lack of discernment? :whistle:

FYI, that passage in Daniel is "prophetic" which means the truth to its meaning does not change according to time.
joer wrote:The understanding of quotes from the Bible, translations of the bible and the interpretations form the Bible, have constantly changed over time.
First it was "THE TRUTH IN OUR TIME" and the "truth in Daniels time" somehow changes the context of scripture. Now its bible translations! :roll:

Daniel 12:2
  • (NIV) Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
  • (NAS) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
  • (NLT) Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace.
  • (KJV) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
  • (NKJV) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
  • (ESV) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
  • (DARBY) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt.
Yeah, that's really hard to understand! :roll:

Where does it say in Revelation 21 that the Lake of Fire is somehow no longer in existence? The Lake of fire will remain since it was "prepared" for the devil and his angels, and all those who rebel against God.

Matthew 25:34—Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Matthew 25:41—Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Both "the Kingdom of God" and "the Lake of Fire" are two places which were "prepared" in advance by God. Which means that the Lake of Fire will exist for all of Eternity as with the Kingdom of God. When God says that he makes "All things new", if we take that in a literal sense than that would mean that even the Kingdom of God would cease to exist. The Lake of Fire and the Kingom of God are eternal. The context is crystal clear, unless you don't want to see it or don't see it for some reason.

Love,
Madeline
Well, it says 'many' , not all. And says 'Life', not 'cast into hell'.. just shame and contempt.

Tell me, why are you associating the 'everlasting shame and contempt' with the 'lake of fire'.

And matthew says that the 'fire' is everlasting, not someone staying there.
goat, you're not making any sense. Who said anything about "all"? Why are people making that passage more complicated then it should be? It's soooooo simple! ;) God doesn't expect us all to be geniuses and figure out some hidden context. ;)

Who said anything about "all" people being condemned? not me! And it makes not sense for the fire to be everlasting whilst there is nobody there.

Mark 9:44—Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Notice how it says "their" worm dieth not? So the person who is condemned doesn't suffer eternal torment and yet "their" worm for some weird reason doesn't die. Context, context, context, it is sooooo simple. If this still doesn't make any sense to you than there is nothing more I can do here on this thread. :hug:

Love,
Madeline
But, what is the CONTEXT of Mark?

It seems you are taking a whole bunch of different pieces from various different scriptures, and trying to meld the togather, despite the fact that they have no relationship with each other.
Oh boy....here we go again!
They have no relationship with each other? bunch of different pieces from various different scriptures? I quoted 2 passages (Dan. 12:2 and Mk. 9:44) which speak about the same event, condemnation. But you want to take this same event and make them into separate events, they're not. Anyways, I'm tied up right now so I'll respond when I have the time.

Love,
Madeline

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Post #93

Post by Goat »

Madeline wrote:
goat wrote:
Madeline wrote:
goat wrote:
Madeline wrote:My lack of discernment? :whistle:

FYI, that passage in Daniel is "prophetic" which means the truth to its meaning does not change according to time.
joer wrote:The understanding of quotes from the Bible, translations of the bible and the interpretations form the Bible, have constantly changed over time.
First it was "THE TRUTH IN OUR TIME" and the "truth in Daniels time" somehow changes the context of scripture. Now its bible translations! :roll:

Daniel 12:2
  • (NIV) Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
  • (NAS) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
  • (NLT) Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace.
  • (KJV) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
  • (NKJV) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
  • (ESV) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
  • (DARBY) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt.
Yeah, that's really hard to understand! :roll:

Where does it say in Revelation 21 that the Lake of Fire is somehow no longer in existence? The Lake of fire will remain since it was "prepared" for the devil and his angels, and all those who rebel against God.

Matthew 25:34—Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Matthew 25:41—Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Both "the Kingdom of God" and "the Lake of Fire" are two places which were "prepared" in advance by God. Which means that the Lake of Fire will exist for all of Eternity as with the Kingdom of God. When God says that he makes "All things new", if we take that in a literal sense than that would mean that even the Kingdom of God would cease to exist. The Lake of Fire and the Kingom of God are eternal. The context is crystal clear, unless you don't want to see it or don't see it for some reason.

Love,
Madeline
Well, it says 'many' , not all. And says 'Life', not 'cast into hell'.. just shame and contempt.

Tell me, why are you associating the 'everlasting shame and contempt' with the 'lake of fire'.

And matthew says that the 'fire' is everlasting, not someone staying there.
goat, you're not making any sense. Who said anything about "all"? Why are people making that passage more complicated then it should be? It's soooooo simple! ;) God doesn't expect us all to be geniuses and figure out some hidden context. ;)

Who said anything about "all" people being condemned? not me! And it makes not sense for the fire to be everlasting whilst there is nobody there.

Mark 9:44—Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Notice how it says "their" worm dieth not? So the person who is condemned doesn't suffer eternal torment and yet "their" worm for some weird reason doesn't die. Context, context, context, it is sooooo simple. If this still doesn't make any sense to you than there is nothing more I can do here on this thread. :hug:

Love,
Madeline
But, what is the CONTEXT of Mark?

It seems you are taking a whole bunch of different pieces from various different scriptures, and trying to meld the togather, despite the fact that they have no relationship with each other.
Oh boy....here we go again!
They have no relationship with each other? bunch of different pieces from various different scriptures? I quoted 2 passages (Dan. 12:2 and Mk. 9:44) which speak about the same event, condemnation. But you want to take this same event and make them into separate events, they're not. Anyways, I'm tied up right now so I'll respond when I have the time.

Love,
Madeline
That's right. They have no realationship with each other. The lines are taken out of context, without concern about what goes before and after.

IT is also not taking into account the change in beliefs over time. The writer of the Book of Daniel was writing in the 2nd century bce, and it was refering to a large part to the persecution of the Jews under antioch. You then quote a single line from Mark, and expect it to line up??

Hardly.

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Post #94

Post by Madeline »

goat wrote:
Madeline wrote:
goat wrote:
Madeline wrote:
goat wrote:
Madeline wrote:My lack of discernment? :whistle:

FYI, that passage in Daniel is "prophetic" which means the truth to its meaning does not change according to time.
joer wrote:The understanding of quotes from the Bible, translations of the bible and the interpretations form the Bible, have constantly changed over time.
First it was "THE TRUTH IN OUR TIME" and the "truth in Daniels time" somehow changes the context of scripture. Now its bible translations! :roll:

Daniel 12:2
  • (NIV) Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
  • (NAS) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
  • (NLT) Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace.
  • (KJV) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
  • (NKJV) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
  • (ESV) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
  • (DARBY) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt.
Yeah, that's really hard to understand! :roll:

Where does it say in Revelation 21 that the Lake of Fire is somehow no longer in existence? The Lake of fire will remain since it was "prepared" for the devil and his angels, and all those who rebel against God.

Matthew 25:34—Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Matthew 25:41—Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Both "the Kingdom of God" and "the Lake of Fire" are two places which were "prepared" in advance by God. Which means that the Lake of Fire will exist for all of Eternity as with the Kingdom of God. When God says that he makes "All things new", if we take that in a literal sense than that would mean that even the Kingdom of God would cease to exist. The Lake of Fire and the Kingom of God are eternal. The context is crystal clear, unless you don't want to see it or don't see it for some reason.

Love,
Madeline
Well, it says 'many' , not all. And says 'Life', not 'cast into hell'.. just shame and contempt.

Tell me, why are you associating the 'everlasting shame and contempt' with the 'lake of fire'.

And matthew says that the 'fire' is everlasting, not someone staying there.
goat, you're not making any sense. Who said anything about "all"? Why are people making that passage more complicated then it should be? It's soooooo simple! ;) God doesn't expect us all to be geniuses and figure out some hidden context. ;)

Who said anything about "all" people being condemned? not me! And it makes not sense for the fire to be everlasting whilst there is nobody there.

Mark 9:44—Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Notice how it says "their" worm dieth not? So the person who is condemned doesn't suffer eternal torment and yet "their" worm for some weird reason doesn't die. Context, context, context, it is sooooo simple. If this still doesn't make any sense to you than there is nothing more I can do here on this thread. :hug:

Love,
Madeline
But, what is the CONTEXT of Mark?

It seems you are taking a whole bunch of different pieces from various different scriptures, and trying to meld the togather, despite the fact that they have no relationship with each other.
Oh boy....here we go again!
They have no relationship with each other? bunch of different pieces from various different scriptures? I quoted 2 passages (Dan. 12:2 and Mk. 9:44) which speak about the same event, condemnation. But you want to take this same event and make them into separate events, they're not. Anyways, I'm tied up right now so I'll respond when I have the time.

Love,
Madeline
That's right. They have no realationship with each other. The lines are taken out of context, without concern about what goes before and after.

IT is also not taking into account the change in beliefs over time. The writer of the Book of Daniel was writing in the 2nd century bce, and it was refering to a large part to the persecution of the Jews under antioch. You then quote a single line from Mark, and expect it to line up??

Hardly.
My goodness! Are you having trouble understanding simple context?


Daniel 12
1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

This is a prophecy of the "time of the end" During the Great Tribulation there will be an unprecedented attack to exterminate the Jews, but they will be delivered by Michael the archangel. After the Great Tribulation there will be 2 resurrections, one of the righteous to everlasting life and another of the unrighteous to everlasting contempt. A comparison with Revelation 20:4 shows that these two resurrections are separated by the one-thousand-year reign of Christ. That is the context of the passage in Daniel. Hope that helps! :hug:

Love,
Madeline

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Post #95

Post by joer »

Madeline wrote:
*sigh* You need to take your own advice instead of ignoring the plain context of scripture. It's sad how you have to rely on the interpretations of man by posting links rather than Gods plain words. Copying and pasting articles from wikipedia doesn't help, it proved absolutely bubkis!
Funny you should say, . "It's sad how you have to rely on the interpretations of man… rather than Gods plain words". When you’re the one interpreting “that passage in Daniel is "prophetic" which means the truth to its meaning does not change according to time. “ I don’t see the bible quote all I see is your words. If you really believe “Gods plain words.” What do you say anything for? Why don’t you just post the Bible passage with out saying anything and let God speak for Himself? What does he need afallable mortal like you for to tell everybody what He’s saying. Why don’t you TAKE YOUR OWN ADVICE and just post quotes.

You seem to enjoy poopooing Wikipedia. What’s wrong? Embarrassed that your definition of prophetic was WRONG. I guess you figured your best defense for your ignorance was a good offence. You put somebody else’s supportive documentation down when you can’t find anything to support your off the cuff erroneous definition.

Then you wrote:
Then you proceed to play semantics games and tell me that the context doesn't change but rather our understanding does.

And your game is discredit the other person’s legitimate arguments and SHOUT your opinions loud enough and long enough, everybody else will get tired of it and back down.

You continue with:
You can do better than that!
No I can’t. I gave you my best from the heart now you’re soliciting my worse.
Next you write:

Code: Select all

God's words DO NOT change, nor does the context of scripture.


Your right just our understanding does. As in you have yours and I have mine. The words and context are the same. Only the understanding changes to protect the innocent.
Then:
In other words, "our understanding" and not the "Holy Spirits"
Wrong! Our understanding of Christ’s Teachings as engendered by the Holy Spirit in our hearts.
And then you write:
is essentially the same as "Hey, I think I will interpret scripture according to my 'personal' interpretation."
Not Exactly! But we do each hold our own personal opinion of what the scriptures say.

Topaz’s understanding of Rev 21:1 and Rev 21:5 are clear and beautiful. But you won’t even acknowledge if you even understand what he’s saying. As if it’s beneath you to even acknowledge what he said.
After this, we see another scenario : a new heaven + a new earth + ALL THINGS NEW. This means ugly hell is no more. Ugliness, suffering, does not exist anymore in God’s creation b/c He creates ALL THINGS NEW.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Finally we get:
Please address the crystal clear context Daniel 12:2 of just go in circles and being non-responsive regarding the arguments I have posted. Hope this helps!
I have addressed it as all can see in my first post to you. I have been very responsive to your arguments. But it seems my responsiveness has caused consternation within you. So let me just address it in the simplest of forms.

Your arguing with the quote from Daniel that Hell is eternal.

Topaz is arguing with Rev. that Hell will end when all things are made new again.

I agree with Topaz.

End of argument. Follow your faith Madeline. It will lead you to where you want to go.
God Bless you sister! May the Peace and Love of God be your constant companions.

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Re: Is hell eternal or not?

Post #96

Post by myth-one.com »

topaz wrote:Is hell eternal or not?
No, it is not eternal.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

The devil is a spiritual being and lives forever. Therefore, his place of restraint, hell, also lasts forever.

Two "deaths" are described in the scriptures, the first death and the second death. The first death is that of our physical bodies as they exist now:
And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)

Only the first death is mandatory. We are all born as physical bodies and we will all die. The second death is discussed in Revelation:
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)
This second death is optional depending on whether or not one accepts Jesus as their Savior from sin. The most important thing to notice is that it is a death! Death is the penalty, and the penalty is eternal. That is, they will never live again. The act of dying occurs quickly. It is not eternal torture!
_______________
After all have been judged and either been born again as spirits or killed in the lake of fire described as the second death, there is no longer any need for the concept of death. At this point, everyone in existence is a spiritual body which will live forever. Any former humans still alive, exist as spirits. After the last unbeliever is cast into hell and dies, death is no longer a valid concept, and there is no longer any need for a grave. Since no one will ever die again, no one will ever be buried in a grave again. The word hell used in Revelation 20:14 is better translated into English as grave. The concepts of death and hell (the grave) are both cast into the lake of fire and destroyed:
And death and hell (the grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Revelation 20:14)
__________________
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (Revelation 21:1)

This new heaven and earth refer to our new earth and sky, not heaven where God resides. God's heaven was not made desolate by the rebellious angels and men who ruled over the earth, so it did not need to be made anew. Notice that the items necessary to support human life (such as the sun and the seas) are no longer required because there is no longer any human life to support.

Jesus will dwell with us as the ruler of the earth, as He conquers the earth back from Satan. Jesus then rules the earth forever and ever. "The tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them...," places God in the form of Jesus on the earth. Although there are no longer any physical men at this point, man's domain was the earth. The indication is that Jesus will dwell on the earth. That is, where men were. The scriptures never indicate that Christians will live for eternity in heaven! It is always stated that Christians will spend eternity in the Kingdom of Heaven. This Kingdom of Heaven includes heaven and other territories. God's will is not presently being done on the Earth, so the Earth is not now included in the Kingdom of Heaven. In fact, we are instructed in the Lord's prayer to pray for the Earth to become part of the Kingdom of Heaven:
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. (Matthew 6:10)
After the Second Coming and Jesus' defeat of Satan, the Earth will once again become part of the kingdom:
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15)
So Jesus will defeat Satan and the Earth will become part of the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus will then rule the Earth from new Jerusalem for ever and ever. What will born again Christians be doing?
...we shall also reign with him. (II Timothy 2:12)
And how long will we be on the Earth reigning with Jesus? For eternity:
...and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

In any event, you will be an unrestrained spirit with freedom of choice. If you desire to go to heaven there should be nothing to stop you. However, based on the description and conditions of the new earth and new Jerusalem, no one should desire to leave!

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Post #97

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Page 10 Post
myth-one wrote: The devil is a spiritual being and lives forever. Therefore, his place of restraint, hell, also lasts forever.
Please explain how we can verify this indepent of the book that claims it so.
myth-one wrote: Two "deaths" are described in the scriptures, the first death and the second death. The first death is that of our physical bodies as they exist now
Please explain how this can be verified independent of the original source for the claim.
This second death is optional depending on whether or not one accepts Jesus as their Savior from sin. The most important thing to notice is that it is a death! Death is the penalty, and the penalty is eternal. That is, they will never live again. The act of dying occurs quickly. It is not eternal torture!
Please explain how we can verify:
1- This second death occurs.
2- This second death is 'optional'.
3- The act of dying occurs 'quickly'. I think I can beleive the death itself is a 'pixel' away, but what does this say about folks who are starving, or have cancer.
myth-one wrote: After all have been judged and either been born again as spirits or killed in the lake of fire described as the second death, there is no longer any need for the concept of death.
Please explain how we can verify:
1- Folks are 'judged'.
2- Folks are 'born again'.
3- Folks are 'born again' as 'spirits'.
4- There is 'no longer any need for the concept of death'. I can agree folks who die probably have no need for the concept, but what does this say of the living?
myth-one wrote: At this point, everyone in existence is a spiritual body which will live forever. Any former humans still alive, exist as spirits.
Please explain:
1- How this can be verified outside the book that originally makes the claim.
2- How everyone in existence is a spiritual body.
3- How everyone in existence will live forever.
4- How any humans still alive exist as spirits.
myth-one wrote: After the last unbeliever is cast into hell and dies, death is no longer a valid concept, and there is no longer any need for a grave.
Please explain:
1- How we can verify this independent of the original claim.
2- How we can verify unbelievers will be cast into Hell and die.
myth-one wrote: Since no one will ever die again, no one will ever be buried in a grave again.
Please explain, independent of the original source:
1- How no one will ever die again.
myth-one wrote: The concepts of death and hell (the grave) are both cast into the lake of fire and destroyed
Please explain how we can verify:
1- A concept can be cast into a lake of fire.
2- A concept can be destroyed.
myth-one wrote: This new heaven and earth refer to our new earth and sky, not heaven where God resides
Please show how we can verify:
1- This heaven exists.
2- This heaven is not the one in which God resides.
myth-one wrote: God's heaven was not made desolate by the rebellious angels and men who ruled over the earth, so it did not need to be made anew
Please show how we can verify:
1- This God's heaven exists.
2- These rebellious angels exist.
3- These rebellious angels and men ruled over earth.
myth-one wrote: God's will is not presently being done on the Earth, so the Earth is not now included in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Please explain how we can verify when God's will is being done.
myth-one wrote: In any event, you will be an unrestrained spirit with freedom of choice. If you desire to go to heaven there should be nothing to stop you. However, based on the description and conditions of the new earth and new Jerusalem, no one should desire to leave!
Please explain how we can verify:
1- Folks will be unrestrained 'spirits'.
2- This heaven exists to be desirous of.
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Post #98

Post by myth-one.com »

Joeyknuccione repeated wrote:Please explain how we can verify this indepent of the book that claims it so.
The topic is "Is hell eternal or not?" under the forum "Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma." I am a Christian, so my theology, doctrina, and dogma must be supported by The Holy Bible. Why am I required to verify my theology is supported by any other book? I supplied quotes from the Bible supporting my Christian beliefs.

Being an atheist, I suppose you do not believe in hell. Why then do you even care if it is eternal or not?

If we both agree that my claims are in the Bible, then my Christian theology, doctrine, and dogma are verified in my "book." Frankly, Charlotte, I don't care if any other book supports my claims. If volume counts for anything, then your posts are impressive. Get a life!

[center]Duh?[/center]

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Post #99

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Page 10 Post 98
joeyknuccione wrote: Please explain how we can verify this independent of the book that claims it so.
myth-one wrote: The topic is "Is hell eternal or not?" under the forum "Theology, Doctrine, & Dogma." I am a Christian, so my theology, doctrina, and dogma must be supported by The Holy Bible. Why am I required to verify my theology is supported by any other book? I supplied quotes from the Bible supporting my Christian beliefs.
If the basis for opinion is wrong, then it is not unreasonable to think the following claims are wrong.
You made claims, I asked how we can verify them, independent of the original source. If we can't verify these claims outside of the original source, and the veracity of the original source can't be verified, then we are left solely with personal opinion that is unverifiable and untestable, and I wish to point this fact out to the observer.

So I point out to the observer you are stating opinion only, as you don't wish to try to provide any verification for such, other than a book that is itself in dispute as to reliability of claims.
myth-one wrote: Being an atheist, I suppose you do not believe in hell. Why then do you even care if it is eternal or not?
Because many religious folks use the threat of this Hell without ever attempting to prove it exists. People are told if they don't believe the fantastical, unproven, unverifiable claims in the Bible, they will burn in this Hell the Bible itself fails to prove exists.

Are you willing to attempt to prove this Hell exists?
myth-one wrote: If we both agree that my claims are in the Bible, then my Christian theology, doctrine, and dogma are verified in my "book." Frankly, Charlotte, I don't care if any other book supports my claims. If volume counts for anything, then your posts are impressive...
You are correct in claiming "Theology, Doctrine, & Dogma". I note your claims may or may not be in the Bible. If we can't verify, outside of the Bible, claims you make, then we are left solely with your opinion, and the claims of a book that we can't support with verifiable evidence.

I challenge your "Theology, Doctrine & Dogma" on the basis the Bible itself tells us humans are fallible beings. As we are fallible beings, I challenge anyone who would make interpretive claims about a book that itself tells us we are fallible.

"There is none good but God". The Bible says it, no doubt. How does it prove it?

As you make these interpretive claims, how are we to know you are not fallible, that your claims themselves are not fallible?

The only way we are to know this is if proof can be provided for your claims.

The volume of someone's posts means nothing if they can't be shown to be true.
myth-one wrote: Get a life!
As I am currently confined to a wheelchair/crutches, my life consists of asking folks for proof of their claims. When they are unwilling to provide such, I point out to the observer that what that person claims is merely opinion, and should be measured in light of the fact they don't wish to prove it.
myth-one wrote: Duh?
I note here, in response to the word

Proof

You would offer

Duh.
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Post #100

Post by myth-one.com »

joeyknuccione wrote:You made claims, I asked how we can verify them, independent of the original source. If we can't verify these claims outside of the original source, and the veracity of the original source can't be verified, then we are left solely with personal opinion that is unverifiable and untestable, and I wish to point this fact out to the observer.
The question is "Is hell eternal or not?" My claim as a Christian is that the Bible says hell is eternal. I provide Bible verses which support my claims. Your counterpoint would be to prove that what I claim is not supported by the Bible.
Joeyknuccione wrote:So I point out to the observer you are stating opinion only, as you don't wish to try to provide any verification for such, other than a book that is itself in dispute as to reliability of claims.
It is not opinion only. I state that hell is eternal, but who am I to say that? So I point out that the Bible indicates hell is eternal. I expect you as an atheist not to believe the Bible. That is your choice and I respect that.
myth-one wrote:Being an atheist, I suppose you do not believe in hell. Why then do you even care if it is eternal or not?
Joeyknuccione wrote:Because many religious folks use the threat of this Hell without ever attempting to prove it exists. People are told if they don't believe the fantastical, unproven, unverifiable claims in the Bible, they will burn in this Hell the Bible itself fails to prove exists.
Yes, sadly most Christians feel they need fear to bring people to Jesus. I do not hold to the widely taught "eternal torture in hellfire" myth because the Bible states that nonbelievers quickly perish in hell and never live again. This false belief of eternal torment makes "Christianity" a religion of fear, worry, and stress.
As you make these interpretive claims, how are we to know you are not fallible, that your claims themselves are not fallible?
If Satan will be tormented eternally in hell, then hell must also be eternal. That's deductive.
The volume of someone's posts means nothing if they can't be shown to be true.
A point of agreement! So prove what I say is not in the Bible.
Joeyknuccione wrote:As I am currently confined to a wheelchair/crutches, my life consists of asking folks for proof of their claims.
I am sorry about your plight. This is not said to make you angry, but I will pray for your welfare. As you say, you do have a life. Good for you. Life is our most valuable posession. I know Christians who probably have much more in physical posessions than you or I, yet are totally miserable. Continue to be an inspiration to others through the life you have.

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