Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

[polonius]

After the “Ascension of Jesus� the Jewish Christians continued as very observant members of Judaism and worshipped in the Temple. This means that they had to believe the most basic of Jewish teachings – “Hear O Israel, the Lord is One�

Although the Old Testament made clear that the Messiah was a man (not divine) as does Acts, about 85 AD, Christians began to claim that Jesus was divine himself. This resulted in them being anathematized from Judaism labeled “minim� or apostates and excluded from Jewish synagogues. (see the gospel of John written in 95 AD).

To remedy this problem, about the third century the idea of a Trinity was invented. It’s three members were said to be absolutely consubstantial (same substance), co-eternal, and co-equal.

But the “co-equal� claim is self-defeating. If two things are absolutely “co-equal� they are the same. There is no characteristic to distinguish them. If they can be distinguished, obviously they are not the same or co-equal.

[Difflugia]

I have answered what an Interlinear has to offer by way of showing that "Alpha and Omega" and "first and last" are written differently in the Greek text.

Did somebody say they weren't? I'm really trying to follow what your point is. In the Textus Receptus and KJV, Jesus says that he's both the Alpha and Omega and the first and the last.

You just don't accept my reasoning.

That's funny.

BTW, I haven't been referring to "our" Interlinear Bible. I have been citing Hendrickson's Interlinear Bible in Hebrew, Greek and English, J.P. Green, General Editor and Translator, 1976.

That's even funnier. That particular edition is based on Scrivener's Textus Receptus, which has Jesus saying in Revelation 2:11 that he's the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.



What point were you making again?

[Capbook]

Yes, they are equal in the state of being God. (Col 2:9)
Lexicon define Godhead in Greek "theotes" as state of being God.
The Father is superior in rank, position or role but they are equal in the nature of God.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

θεότης theotēs
Thayer Definition:
1) deity
1a) the state of being God, Godhead

That is not what "theotes" means if we are to look at this truthfully. There are versions of the Bible that translate it as "deity," "godship," or "divine quality." There is no such Being as a three-headed God. There is God (the Father), and His Son who is His representative and the reflected image of His godship or deity. One Person as God, and only the Father.

Yes, deity is also one of the definition, and the second definition is "the state of being God".
I've shown you lexicon definition and you insist of Jesus role as representative.
May I know what verse that says Jesus is a representative? Or any lexicon to prove your point.

I am looking at the Scriptures themselves and reasoning on them. There are verses that say that Jesus is from God and God sent him, therefore it can be said that he is God's representative. God did not come here, so He sent Jesus instead. Isn't that tantamount to being a representative of God? Everything Jesus said and did was the Father's will. He said: "I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father Himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak....Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me, so I speak." (John 12: 49,50)

"I know Him, because I am from Him, and he sent me." (John 7:29, NASB)

"For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came forth from the Father." (John 16:27, NASB)

In prayer to the Father: "For the words which You gave me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believe that You sent me." (John 17:8, NASB)

Representative, according to the Oxford Dictionary, means: "a delegate, or, substitute."

As "represenative" not a Bible word, is 1 Pet4:11 fits to your explanation of representative?
Jesus is the "image" of God, Greek word "eikon" means "figure" of the invisible God.(Col 1:15)
Jesus is mighty God, and why He is called "the everlasting Father?(Isa 9:6)
The Father also is called mighty God. (Isa 10:20,21)

Jesus is El Gibbor--mighty god. Jehovah is Almighty God--El Shaddai. So Jesus can be called a god, which only means a mighty spirit Person. A god can be a man in high position, but of course Jesus is not a man at this time...he is at the right hand of the Almighty God.

Jesus is called "everlasting father" because he is the origin of the fact that mankind is being given life by his actions. A father is a life-giver. Jesus has given all of us the hope of eternal life.

And why is the Father " Gibbor" in Isa 10:20,21? Do that mean that the Father can be called god, which only means a mighty spirit person?
Jesus was prophesied to be born to be on earth and to be called mighty God, everlasting Father.
In John 17:3, how can a Christian experience eternal life? I hope there's a reply to this.

The Father is both---mighty and almighty. Jesus is only mighty. He is never called El Shaddai in the Scriptures.

John 17:3 shows that the Father is the only true God. Eternal life means knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ, sent by God.

Yes, for Christians to experience eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ, to truly know them.(1John 5:20)
You have said that Jesus is "the first and the last" but in the book of Revelation the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, and the first and the last are always connected where apostle John see the voice (not voices) that speak to him one like the Son of man.(Rev 1:11-13)
As the Father and Jesus as "El Gibbor".
And also, "The first and the last" Jesus as mentioned together with "the Alpha and Omega", and "the beginning and the end" in Rev 22:12,13, whom is the Almighty in Rev 1:8.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Rev.1:8 applies to Jehovah, the Father. He is the Almighty. He is also the Alpha and Omega. Jesus is never called Alpha and Omega, as you could see if you looked at an Interlinear Bible, which I have asked you to do up until now. He is "the first and the last," but the Greek letters are different than "Alpha and Omega." There are two different meanings going on here.

You've said that Jesus is the first and the last.
Why the Almighty Father said, I am the first and the last? (Rev 22:13)

[onewithhim]

That is not what "theotes" means if we are to look at this truthfully. There are versions of the Bible that translate it as "deity," "godship," or "divine quality." There is no such Being as a three-headed God. There is God (the Father), and His Son who is His representative and the reflected image of His godship or deity. One Person as God, and only the Father.

Yes, deity is also one of the definition, and the second definition is "the state of being God".
I've shown you lexicon definition and you insist of Jesus role as representative.
May I know what verse that says Jesus is a representative? Or any lexicon to prove your point.

I am looking at the Scriptures themselves and reasoning on them. There are verses that say that Jesus is from God and God sent him, therefore it can be said that he is God's representative. God did not come here, so He sent Jesus instead. Isn't that tantamount to being a representative of God? Everything Jesus said and did was the Father's will. He said: "I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father Himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak....Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me, so I speak." (John 12: 49,50)

"I know Him, because I am from Him, and he sent me." (John 7:29, NASB)

"For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came forth from the Father." (John 16:27, NASB)

In prayer to the Father: "For the words which You gave me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believe that You sent me." (John 17:8, NASB)

Representative, according to the Oxford Dictionary, means: "a delegate, or, substitute."

As "represenative" not a Bible word, is 1 Pet4:11 fits to your explanation of representative?
Jesus is the "image" of God, Greek word "eikon" means "figure" of the invisible God.(Col 1:15)
Jesus is mighty God, and why He is called "the everlasting Father?(Isa 9:6)
The Father also is called mighty God. (Isa 10:20,21)

Jesus is El Gibbor--mighty god. Jehovah is Almighty God--El Shaddai. So Jesus can be called a god, which only means a mighty spirit Person. A god can be a man in high position, but of course Jesus is not a man at this time...he is at the right hand of the Almighty God.

Jesus is called "everlasting father" because he is the origin of the fact that mankind is being given life by his actions. A father is a life-giver. Jesus has given all of us the hope of eternal life.

And why is the Father " Gibbor" in Isa 10:20,21? Do that mean that the Father can be called god, which only means a mighty spirit person?
Jesus was prophesied to be born to be on earth and to be called mighty God, everlasting Father.
In John 17:3, how can a Christian experience eternal life? I hope there's a reply to this.

The Father is both---mighty and almighty. Jesus is only mighty. He is never called El Shaddai in the Scriptures.

John 17:3 shows that the Father is the only true God. Eternal life means knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ, sent by God.

Yes, for Christians to experience eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ, to truly know them.(1John 5:20)
You have said that Jesus is "the first and the last" but in the book of Revelation the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, and the first and the last are always connected where apostle John see the voice (not voices) that speak to him one like the Son of man.(Rev 1:11-13)
As the Father and Jesus as "El Gibbor".
And also, "The first and the last" Jesus as mentioned together with "the Alpha and Omega", and "the beginning and the end" in Rev 22:12,13, whom is the Almighty in Rev 1:8.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Rev.1:8 applies to Jehovah, the Father. He is the Almighty. He is also the Alpha and Omega. Jesus is never called Alpha and Omega, as you could see if you looked at an Interlinear Bible, which I have asked you to do up until now. He is "the first and the last," but the Greek letters are different than "Alpha and Omega." There are two different meanings going on here.

You've said that Jesus is the first and the last.
Why the Almighty Father said, I am the first and the last? (Rev 22:13)

It says that the Almighty Father is "Alpha and Omega" and "the first and the last." Look at an Interlinear Bible and you can see the difference in the Greek words, so there are other meanings to consider. Anyway, Jehovah can be the Alpha and Omega AND the first and the last, just as He is "El Shaddai" AND "El Gibbor." He is God Almighty AND a mighty God. Jesus is not Alpha and Omega and neither is he El Shaddai, though the Father is both, the Father also being a Mighty God and the Almighty God. Jesus is never referred to as Alpha and Omega or El Shaddai.

[Difflugia]

You've said that Jesus is the first and the last.
Why the Almighty Father said, I am the first and the last? (Rev 22:13)

It says that the Almighty Father is "Alpha and Omega" and "the first and the last." Look at an Interlinear Bible and you can see the difference in the Greek words, so there are other meanings to consider. Anyway, Jehovah can be the Alpha and Omega AND the first and the last, just as He is "El Shaddai" AND "El Gibbor." He is God Almighty AND a mighty God. Jesus is not Alpha and Omega and neither is he El Shaddai, though the Father is both, the Father also being a Mighty God and the Almighty God. Jesus is never referred to as Alpha and Omega or El Shaddai.

According to Revelation 1:11 in your Hendrickson interlinear, Jesus actually is the Alpha and the Omega. That's in Greek and everything.

[onewithhim]

You've said that Jesus is the first and the last.
Why the Almighty Father said, I am the first and the last? (Rev 22:13)

It says that the Almighty Father is "Alpha and Omega" and "the first and the last." Look at an Interlinear Bible and you can see the difference in the Greek words, so there are other meanings to consider. Anyway, Jehovah can be the Alpha and Omega AND the first and the last, just as He is "El Shaddai" AND "El Gibbor." He is God Almighty AND a mighty God. Jesus is not Alpha and Omega and neither is he El Shaddai, though the Father is both, the Father also being a Mighty God and the Almighty God. Jesus is never referred to as Alpha and Omega or El Shaddai.

According to Revelation 1:11 in your Hendrickson interlinear, Jesus actually is the Alpha and the Omega. That's in Greek and everything.

Not so. You didn't look at the actual Greek words. Revelation 1:11 shows that "the first and the last" is quite different from "Alpha and Omega." You don't see Alpha and Omega in that verse, do you?

[Difflugia]

Jesus is never referred to as Alpha and Omega or El Shaddai.

According to Revelation 1:11 in your Hendrickson interlinear, Jesus actually is the Alpha and the Omega. That's in Greek and everything.

Not so. You didn't look at the actual Greek words.

You should know by now to be more careful when telling me what I did or didn't do.

Revelation 1:11 shows that "the first and the last" is quite different from "Alpha and Omega." You don't see Alpha and Omega in that verse, do you?

Yes. That's what I'm telling you. There are a few different editions of the Hendrickson combination Hebrew and Greek interlinears, including a four-volume set and a single volume with both Hebrew and Greek, but all of them use the same Greek-English by Jay P. Green. He specifically chose the Textus Receptus as the basis for his interlinear because he believed that the Textus Receptus is the divinely preserved Word of God. In the preface, he wrote:

Other texts have been put forth from time to time, but none have been found true and powerful enough to displace these two texts: The Masoretic Text of the Old Testament, and The Received Text of the New Testament.

He goes on to discuss the Satanic conspiracy to change the Bible:

Again, then, let this question be posed:: Has Satan, like a sleight-of-hand shell-game artist, finally brought God's children to the point where they are searching desperately for the true Word of God? Are we to believe that it cannot now be intact, having been run through the shredder of unholy hands and heads? Let it not be said! Let your answer be a resounding, crashing NO!

If you actually have a copy of the Hendrickson interlinear that you claim you do, find verse Revelation 1:11 in the Greek. The image I posted above is from volume 4 of the four-volume set. Here it is again.



You can see this Greek text:
Ἐγὠ εἰμι τὸ Α καὶ τὸ Ω
That literally means, "I am the Α and the Ω."

In the Textus Receptus, Jesus tells us in Revelation 1:11 that he is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last. That's not some artifact of translation. If you had picked almost any other Greek interlinear produced in the last hundred years, those words wouldn't be there. You had the amusing misfortune, however, to select the very one that contradicts what you told me. If you were honest about having that interlinear, you either didn't actually look up Revelation 1:11 or you didn't understand what you saw when you did.

[JehovahsWitness]

... Look at an Interlinear Bible and you can see the difference in the Greek words, so there are other meanings to consider. Anyway, Jehovah can be the Alpha and Omega AND the first and the last, just as He is "El Shaddai" AND "El Gibbor." He is God Almighty AND a mighty God. Jesus is not Alpha and Omega and neither is he El Shaddai, though the Father is both, the Father also being a Mighty God and the Almighty God. Jesus is never referred to as Alpha and Omega or El Shaddai.

Nice points. Sometimes all that is needed is to read rhe text closely.

[Capbook]

... Look at an Interlinear Bible and you can see the difference in the Greek words, so there are other meanings to consider. Anyway, Jehovah can be the Alpha and Omega AND the first and the last, just as He is "El Shaddai" AND "El Gibbor." He is God Almighty AND a mighty God. Jesus is not Alpha and Omega and neither is he El Shaddai, though the Father is both, the Father also being a Mighty God and the Almighty God. Jesus is never referred to as Alpha and Omega or El Shaddai.

Nice points. Sometimes all that is needed is to read rhe text closely.

Alpha and Omega does appear in Rev 1:11, we posted our Greek in that text but you have not posted yours.

Rev 1:11 Saying, G3004  I G1473  am G1510  ( G3588 ) Alpha G1  and G2532  ( G3588 ) Omega, G5598  the G3588  first G4413  and G2532  the G3588  last: G2078  and, G2532  What G3739  thou seest, G991  write G1125  in G1519  a book, G975  and G2532  send G3992  it unto the G3588  seven G2033  churches G1577  which G3588  are in G1722  Asia; G773  unto G1519  Ephesus, G2181  and G2532  unto G1519  Smyrna, G4667  and G2532  unto G1519  Pergamos, G4010  and G2532  unto G1519  Thyatira, G2363  and G2532  unto G1519  Sardis, G4554  and G2532  unto G1519  Philadelphia, G5359  and G2532  unto G1519  Laodicea. G2993 

Rev 1:11 λεγουσης G3004 V-PAP-GSF  εγω G1473 P-1NS  ειμι G1510 V-PAI-1S  το G3588 T-NSN  α G1 N-LI  και G2532 CONJ  το G3588 T-NSN  ω G5598 N-LI  ο G3588 T-NSM  πρωτος G4413 A-NSM-S  και G2532 CONJ  ο G3588 T-NSM  εσχατος G2078 A-NSM-S  και G2532 CONJ  ο G3739 R-ASN  βλεπεις G991 V-PAI-2S  γραψον G1125 V-AAM-2S  εις G1519 PREP  βιβλιον G975 N-ASN  και G2532 CONJ  πεμψον G3992 V-AAM-2S  ταις G3588 T-DPF  | | επτα G2033 A-NUI  | εκκλησιαις G1577 N-DPF  ταις G3588 T-DPF  εν G1722 PREP  ασια G773 N-DSF  εις G1519 PREP  εφεσον G2181 N-ASF  και G2532 CONJ  εις G1519 PREP  σμυρναν G4667 N-ASF  και G2532 CONJ  εις G1519 PREP  περγαμον G4010 N-ASF  και G2532 CONJ  εις G1519 PREP  θυατειρα G2363 N-APN  και G2532 CONJ  εις G1519 PREP  σαρδεις G4554 N-APF  και G2532 CONJ  εις G1519 PREP  φιλαδελφειαν G5359 N-ASF  και G2532 CONJ  εις G1519 PREP  λαοδικειαν G2993 N-ASF 

Rev 1:11 λεγουσης εγω ειμι το α και το ω ο πρωτος και ο εσχατος και ο βλεπεις γραψον εις βιβλιον και πεμψον ταις επτα εκκλησιαις ταις εν ασια εις εφεσον και εις σμυρναν και εις περγαμον και εις θυατειρα και εις σαρδεις και εις φιλαδελφειαν και εις λαοδικειαν

[onewithhim]

Jesus is never referred to as Alpha and Omega or El Shaddai.

According to Revelation 1:11 in your Hendrickson interlinear, Jesus actually is the Alpha and the Omega. That's in Greek and everything.

Not so. You didn't look at the actual Greek words.

You should know by now to be more careful when telling me what I did or didn't do.

Revelation 1:11 shows that "the first and the last" is quite different from "Alpha and Omega." You don't see Alpha and Omega in that verse, do you?

Yes. That's what I'm telling you. There are a few different editions of the Hendrickson combination Hebrew and Greek interlinears, including a four-volume set and a single volume with both Hebrew and Greek, but all of them use the same Greek-English by Jay P. Green. He specifically chose the Textus Receptus as the basis for his interlinear because he believed that the Textus Receptus is the divinely preserved Word of God. In the preface, he wrote:

Other texts have been put forth from time to time, but none have been found true and powerful enough to displace these two texts: The Masoretic Text of the Old Testament, and The Received Text of the New Testament.

He goes on to discuss the Satanic conspiracy to change the Bible:

Again, then, let this question be posed:: Has Satan, like a sleight-of-hand shell-game artist, finally brought God's children to the point where they are searching desperately for the true Word of God? Are we to believe that it cannot now be intact, having been run through the shredder of unholy hands and heads? Let it not be said! Let your answer be a resounding, crashing NO!

If you actually have a copy of the Hendrickson interlinear that you claim you do, find verse Revelation 1:11 in the Greek. The image I posted above is from volume 4 of the four-volume set. Here it is again.



You can see this Greek text:
Ἐγὠ εἰμι τὸ Α καὶ τὸ Ω
That literally means, "I am the Α and the Ω."

In the Textus Receptus, Jesus tells us in Revelation 1:11 that he is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last. That's not some artifact of translation. If you had picked almost any other Greek interlinear produced in the last hundred years, those words wouldn't be there. You had the amusing misfortune, however, to select the very one that contradicts what you told me. If you were honest about having that interlinear, you either didn't actually look up Revelation 1:11 or you didn't understand what you saw when you did.

I have looked it up, many times. It is referring to Jehovah, the Father (God Almighty). As I said, He is both Alpha and Omega and the First and the Last. I see that the words for Alpha and Omega and the First and the Last are different in the Greek. So when Jesus is called the First and the Last it doesn't mean that he is also Alpha and Omega. It's like I said about "El Shaddai" and "El Gibbor." Jehovah is both El Shaddai and El Gibbor---Almighty God and "mighty god." Jesus is called "mighty god" at Isaiah 9:6 but not Almighty God. He is El Gibbor but is never called "El Shaddai." Only Jehovah is El Shaddai. So, only Jehovah is Alpha and Omega, God Almighty, AND the First and the Last, according to the Greek words. Jesus is just the First and the Last. (Revelation 1:17,18) It doesn't say that he is the Almighty.

[Difflugia]

I have looked it up, many times. It is referring to Jehovah, the Father (God Almighty). As I said, He is both Alpha and Omega and the First and the Last.

Are you now claiming that the voice speaking in Revelation 1:10-11 isn't Jesus? If not, what do 1:12-13 mean?

Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.