+++ THE COLLECTIVE MESSIAH +++

[Ben Masada]

The text is the whole chapter 53 of Isaiah.

We all know that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. So, no argument about it. But then, who did Isaiah have in mind when he wrote chapter
53? In fact, who was in his mind when he wrote the whole book? That's in Isaiah
1:1. "A vision about Judah and Jerusalem. That's the theme of the whole book of
Isaiah: Judah. The House of Jacob, called by the new name Israel, from the stock
of Judah. (Isa. 48:1)

Now, how about the Suffering Servant? Isaiah mentions him by name, which is Israel according to Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. Here we have established a
syllogism. If the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and that Servant is
indetified with Israel, the resultant premise will obviously be that Israel, the Jewish
People is the Messiah. Rashi thought so too, and a few other thinkers of weight.

Now, if the Messiah must also bring the epithet of son of God, there is no paradox;
we can have that from Exodus 4:22,23 and Hosea 11:1. "Israel is My son; so let
My son go that he may serve Me." Says the Lord.

Last but not least, Jesus was no doubt part of the Messiah but not on an individual
basis. The Messiah is collective. What we need from time to time, especially when
in exile, is of a Messianic leader to inspire or lead the Messiah back home. Moses was one for bringing the Messiah back to Canaan. Cyrus was another for proclaiming the return of the Messiah and for financing the rebuilding of the Temple. And herzl was another for inspiring the Messiah with love for Zion.

Ben

[Paul2]

McCulloch,

Then why are humans condemned for doing that which they cannot prevent themselves from doing?

It's not clear to me whether you are referring to human death or whether you are referring to the false doctrine of everlasting torment. Perhaps you mean neither. Please explain further.


Paul

[Cathar1950]

McCulloch,

Then why are humans condemned for doing that which they cannot prevent themselves from doing?

It's not clear to me whether you are referring to human death or whether you are referring to the false doctrine of everlasting torment. Perhaps you mean neither. Please explain further.


Paul

Does it feel like you are caught in a doctrinal cross-hairs Mack?
Pin it down and there is always the other false doctrines as an explanation.

[Paul2]

Cathar1950,

Pin it down and there is always the other false doctrines as an explanation.

Was it your intention to debate in accordance with the rules or was it your intention to disrupt debate with a sarcastic comment? Perhaps your intention was neither of these. Please explain your purpose in making the above quoted comment.


Paul

[Cathar1950]

Cathar1950,

Pin it down and there is always the other false doctrines as an explanation.

Was it your intention to debate in accordance with the rules or was it your intention to disrupt debate with a sarcastic comment? Perhaps your intention was neither of these. Please explain your purpose in making the above quoted comment.


Paul

I was making a sarcastic comment about the dodge.
Mack ask you a question:

Then why are humans condemned for doing that which they cannot prevent themselves from doing?

Because you wrote:

Free will does not exist. You do not have the power to cease permanently from sinning by exercising your will.

Here you claim there is no free will. You also claim cease permanently from sinning by exercising your will.
Mack ask a simple question and you dodged it with some nonsense about more qualifications ( What does "cease permanently" suppose to mean?) for your already unexplained claims.

[Paul2]

Cathar1950,

I was making a sarcastic comment about the dodge.

"The dodge" only exists in your imagination. I requested that McCulloch explain his meaning. Does he claim God condemns humans to everlasting torment or does he mean something else?

Here you claim there is no free will. You also claim cease permanently from sinning by exercising your will.

I did not claim "cease permanently from sinning by exercising your will". That would be a challenge and not a claim and I made no such challenge. I made this claim: "You do not have the power to cease permanently from sinning by exercising your will".

What does "cease permanently" suppose to mean?

It means stop and never start again.

...for your already unexplained claims.

Free will does not exist. You do not have the power to cease permanently from sinning by exercising your will.

What is unexplained? These claims are expressed in clear English.


Paul

[Cathar1950]

I recall one defence used was that we as pots shouldn't question the potter.
Naturally I don't think we are pots made out of clay or that God is the potter except in a metaphorical sense.
This metaphor conflicts with the Children metaphor.

But if were were pots then the only one to blame is God for such poor workmanship God has to toss away most of His pots.
He either made to many or ones that had flaws but if he made them and is responsible then punishment isn't deserved.
What some Christians have is a mixed bag of doctrines that for the most part are contradictiory.
Part of this problem is there are a number of ideas of sin.
In some expressions it is like a child that does wrong but repents and returns as in a family member is reconciled in another it is the braking of a vassal's oath to his Lord. The Christian tries to make it all some vague notions of morality.\

[Paul2]

Cathar1950,

...God has to toss away most of His pots.

God doesn't destroy "pots" because He made a mistake. He deliberately makes some to be destroyed (Ro 9:21,22). God doesn't destroy any "pot" permanently. Ultimately, all will be reconciled to God (Col 1:20).

...but if he made them and is responsible then punishment isn't deserved.

That seems to be true. God created Man. God is responsible for the outcome.


Paul

[Ben Masada]

It doesn't help to try to blame God for our wrongdoings. It only serves to make God unfair and unjust, and of ourselves like the irrational animals without freewill.

Then why are humans condemned for doing that which they cannot prevent themselves from doing?

Humans are condemned because they use their freewill to break
the Law. Read Genesis 4:7. That's not only logical, but also reported as if said by God Himself. Then, you can read Deuteronomy 30:19. The choice is in us to go for life or death.

Ben:

[Ben Masada]

I recall one defence used was that we as pots shouldn't question the potter.
Naturally I don't think we are pots made out of clay or that God is the potter except in a metaphorical sense.
This metaphor conflicts with the Children metaphor.

But if were were pots then the only one to blame is God for such poor workmanship God has to toss away most of His pots.
He either made to many or ones that had flaws but if he made them and is responsible then punishment isn't deserved.
What some Christians have is a mixed bag of doctrines that for the most part are contradictiory.
Part of this problem is there are a number of ideas of sin.
In some expressions it is like a child that does wrong but repents and returns as in a family member is reconciled in another it is the braking of a vassal's oath to his Lord. The Christian tries to make it all some vague notions of morality.\

The quotation is found in Jeremiah 18:1-10. That was Jeremiah telling the Peope of Israel what He can do, if He wants. He was talking about the people. It doesn't apply to the individual. Each one of us has been granted freewill and God respects that attribute. It's kind of hard to understand it but there is a difference between the individual and the people.

Ben:

[Ben Masada]

Cathar1950,

...but if he made them and is responsible then punishment isn't deserved.

That seems to be true. God created Man. God is responsible for the outcome.


Paul

Why, because He has allowed us to live? Are we now to keep God hostage to our demands of an afterlife reward, for example, because He has allowed us to come from nothing into this break of life? Why don't we demand of Him to have given us something to have enjoyed before we were born? Because we have no awareness of that time, which in fact, was no time.

Since the natural cycle is to return to nothing, why demand a reward for living? Life, as we choose it to live is already our reward. Or punishment, of course, but becaue of our ignorance and stupidity. God has nothing to be responsible for any outcome we choose to lead our lives into.