Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

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polonius
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Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

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Post by polonius »

After the “Ascension of Jesus� the Jewish Christians continued as very observant members of Judaism and worshipped in the Temple. This means that they had to believe the most basic of Jewish teachings – “Hear O Israel, the Lord is One�

Although the Old Testament made clear that the Messiah was a man (not divine) as does Acts, about 85 AD, Christians began to claim that Jesus was divine himself. This resulted in them being anathematized from Judaism labeled “minim� or apostates and excluded from Jewish synagogues. (see the gospel of John written in 95 AD).

To remedy this problem, about the third century the idea of a Trinity was invented. It’s three members were said to be absolutely consubstantial (same substance), co-eternal, and co-equal.

But the “co-equal� claim is self-defeating. If two things are absolutely “co-equal� they are the same. There is no characteristic to distinguish them. If they can be distinguished, obviously they are not the same or co-equal.

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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #71

Post by onewithhim »

Capbook wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:28 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2024 8:14 pm
Capbook wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 1:29 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 9:25 am
Eloi wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:52 pm If Jesus and his Father shared the same "essence" (whatever that term used by Trinitarians defines), should they not have the same will? They should ... and what are the biblical facts?

Matt. 26:42 Again, a second time, he went off and prayed: “My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass away unless I drink it, let your will take place.”

So, Jesus desired to be spared from a death that would bring dishonor to his Father's name in the eyes of the Jews, but he was willing to surrender his will to his Father's.

Obviously, they are two different persons and each one of them has his own personality and will... which does not imply, of course, that the personality of Jesus can perfectly reflect the personality of his Father, either by habit of closeness, by own decision/will or simply because he was created in the image of God.

And there again: they are not "co-equals" or share absolutly everything.

Luke 22:42 (...) “Father, if you want to, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.”
.
Yes, they are equal in the state of being God. (Col 2:9)
Lexicon define Godhead in Greek "theotes" as state of being God.
The Father is superior in rank, position or role but they are equal in the nature of God.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

θεότης theotēs
Thayer Definition:
1) deity
1a) the state of being God, Godhead
That is not what "theotes" means if we are to look at this truthfully. There are versions of the Bible that translate it as "deity," "godship," or "divine quality." There is no such Being as a three-headed God. There is God (the Father), and His Son who is His representative and the reflected image of His godship or deity. One Person as God, and only the Father.

Yes, deity is also one of the definition, and the second definition is "the state of being God".
I've shown you lexicon definition and you insist of Jesus role as representative.
May I know what verse that says Jesus is a representative? Or any lexicon to prove your point.
I am looking at the Scriptures themselves and reasoning on them. There are verses that say that Jesus is from God and God sent him, therefore it can be said that he is God's representative. God did not come here, so He sent Jesus instead. Isn't that tantamount to being a representative of God? Everything Jesus said and did was the Father's will. He said: "I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father Himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak....Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me, so I speak." (John 12: 49,50)

"I know Him, because I am from Him, and he sent me." (John 7:29, NASB)

"For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came forth from the Father." (John 16:27, NASB)

In prayer to the Father: "For the words which You gave me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believe that You sent me." (John 17:8, NASB)

Representative, according to the Oxford Dictionary, means: "a delegate, or, substitute."

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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #72

Post by Capbook »

onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 12:55 pm
Capbook wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:28 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2024 8:14 pm
Capbook wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 1:29 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 9:25 am
Eloi wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:52 pm If Jesus and his Father shared the same "essence" (whatever that term used by Trinitarians defines), should they not have the same will? They should ... and what are the biblical facts?

Matt. 26:42 Again, a second time, he went off and prayed: “My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass away unless I drink it, let your will take place.”

So, Jesus desired to be spared from a death that would bring dishonor to his Father's name in the eyes of the Jews, but he was willing to surrender his will to his Father's.

Obviously, they are two different persons and each one of them has his own personality and will... which does not imply, of course, that the personality of Jesus can perfectly reflect the personality of his Father, either by habit of closeness, by own decision/will or simply because he was created in the image of God.

And there again: they are not "co-equals" or share absolutly everything.

Luke 22:42 (...) “Father, if you want to, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.”
.
Yes, they are equal in the state of being God. (Col 2:9)
Lexicon define Godhead in Greek "theotes" as state of being God.
The Father is superior in rank, position or role but they are equal in the nature of God.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

θεότης theotēs
Thayer Definition:
1) deity
1a) the state of being God, Godhead
That is not what "theotes" means if we are to look at this truthfully. There are versions of the Bible that translate it as "deity," "godship," or "divine quality." There is no such Being as a three-headed God. There is God (the Father), and His Son who is His representative and the reflected image of His godship or deity. One Person as God, and only the Father.

Yes, deity is also one of the definition, and the second definition is "the state of being God".
I've shown you lexicon definition and you insist of Jesus role as representative.
May I know what verse that says Jesus is a representative? Or any lexicon to prove your point.
I am looking at the Scriptures themselves and reasoning on them. There are verses that say that Jesus is from God and God sent him, therefore it can be said that he is God's representative. God did not come here, so He sent Jesus instead. Isn't that tantamount to being a representative of God? Everything Jesus said and did was the Father's will. He said: "I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father Himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak....Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me, so I speak." (John 12: 49,50)

"I know Him, because I am from Him, and he sent me." (John 7:29, NASB)

"For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came forth from the Father." (John 16:27, NASB)

In prayer to the Father: "For the words which You gave me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believe that You sent me." (John 17:8, NASB)

Representative, according to the Oxford Dictionary, means: "a delegate, or, substitute."
As "represenative" not a Bible word, is 1 Pet4:11 fits to your explanation of representative?
Jesus is the "image" of God, Greek word "eikon" means "figure" of the invisible God.(Col 1:15)
Jesus is mighty God, and why He is called "the everlasting Father?(Isa 9:6)
The Father also is called mighty Father. (Isa 10:20,21)

1Pe 4:11 Whoever speaks must speak God's words. Whoever serves must serve with the strength that God supplies, so that in every way God may be glorified through Jesus, the Messiah. Glory and power belong to him forever and ever! Amen

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Isa 10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.


Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

εἰκών eikōn
Thayer Definition:
1) an image, figure, likeness

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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #73

Post by Capbook »

onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 12:55 pm
Capbook wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:28 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2024 8:14 pm
Capbook wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 1:29 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 9:25 am
Eloi wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:52 pm If Jesus and his Father shared the same "essence" (whatever that term used by Trinitarians defines), should they not have the same will? They should ... and what are the biblical facts?

Matt. 26:42 Again, a second time, he went off and prayed: “My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass away unless I drink it, let your will take place.”

So, Jesus desired to be spared from a death that would bring dishonor to his Father's name in the eyes of the Jews, but he was willing to surrender his will to his Father's.

Obviously, they are two different persons and each one of them has his own personality and will... which does not imply, of course, that the personality of Jesus can perfectly reflect the personality of his Father, either by habit of closeness, by own decision/will or simply because he was created in the image of God.

And there again: they are not "co-equals" or share absolutly everything.

Luke 22:42 (...) “Father, if you want to, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.”
.
Yes, they are equal in the state of being God. (Col 2:9)
Lexicon define Godhead in Greek "theotes" as state of being God.
The Father is superior in rank, position or role but they are equal in the nature of God.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

θεότης theotēs
Thayer Definition:
1) deity
1a) the state of being God, Godhead
That is not what "theotes" means if we are to look at this truthfully. There are versions of the Bible that translate it as "deity," "godship," or "divine quality." There is no such Being as a three-headed God. There is God (the Father), and His Son who is His representative and the reflected image of His godship or deity. One Person as God, and only the Father.

Yes, deity is also one of the definition, and the second definition is "the state of being God".
I've shown you lexicon definition and you insist of Jesus role as representative.
May I know what verse that says Jesus is a representative? Or any lexicon to prove your point.
I am looking at the Scriptures themselves and reasoning on them. There are verses that say that Jesus is from God and God sent him, therefore it can be said that he is God's representative. God did not come here, so He sent Jesus instead. Isn't that tantamount to being a representative of God? Everything Jesus said and did was the Father's will. He said: "I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father Himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak....Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me, so I speak." (John 12: 49,50)

"I know Him, because I am from Him, and he sent me." (John 7:29, NASB)

"For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came forth from the Father." (John 16:27, NASB)

In prayer to the Father: "For the words which You gave me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believe that You sent me." (John 17:8, NASB)

Representative, according to the Oxford Dictionary, means: "a delegate, or, substitute."
As "represenative" not a Bible word, is 1 Pet4:11 fits to your explanation of representative?
Jesus is the "image" of God, Greek word "eikon" means "figure" of the invisible God.(Col 1:15)
Jesus is mighty God, and why He is called "the everlasting Father?(Isa 9:6)
The Father also is called mighty God. (Isa 10:20,21)

1Pe 4:11 Whoever speaks must speak God's words. Whoever serves must serve with the strength that God supplies, so that in every way God may be glorified through Jesus, the Messiah. Glory and power belong to him forever and ever! Amen

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Isa 10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

εἰκών eikōn
Thayer Definition:
1) an image, figure, likeness

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onewithhim
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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #74

Post by onewithhim »

Capbook wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 2:10 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 12:55 pm
Capbook wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:28 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2024 8:14 pm
Capbook wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 1:29 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 9:25 am
Eloi wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:52 pm If Jesus and his Father shared the same "essence" (whatever that term used by Trinitarians defines), should they not have the same will? They should ... and what are the biblical facts?

Matt. 26:42 Again, a second time, he went off and prayed: “My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass away unless I drink it, let your will take place.”

So, Jesus desired to be spared from a death that would bring dishonor to his Father's name in the eyes of the Jews, but he was willing to surrender his will to his Father's.

Obviously, they are two different persons and each one of them has his own personality and will... which does not imply, of course, that the personality of Jesus can perfectly reflect the personality of his Father, either by habit of closeness, by own decision/will or simply because he was created in the image of God.

And there again: they are not "co-equals" or share absolutly everything.

Luke 22:42 (...) “Father, if you want to, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.”
.
Yes, they are equal in the state of being God. (Col 2:9)
Lexicon define Godhead in Greek "theotes" as state of being God.
The Father is superior in rank, position or role but they are equal in the nature of God.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

θεότης theotēs
Thayer Definition:
1) deity
1a) the state of being God, Godhead
That is not what "theotes" means if we are to look at this truthfully. There are versions of the Bible that translate it as "deity," "godship," or "divine quality." There is no such Being as a three-headed God. There is God (the Father), and His Son who is His representative and the reflected image of His godship or deity. One Person as God, and only the Father.

Yes, deity is also one of the definition, and the second definition is "the state of being God".
I've shown you lexicon definition and you insist of Jesus role as representative.
May I know what verse that says Jesus is a representative? Or any lexicon to prove your point.
I am looking at the Scriptures themselves and reasoning on them. There are verses that say that Jesus is from God and God sent him, therefore it can be said that he is God's representative. God did not come here, so He sent Jesus instead. Isn't that tantamount to being a representative of God? Everything Jesus said and did was the Father's will. He said: "I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father Himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak....Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me, so I speak." (John 12: 49,50)

"I know Him, because I am from Him, and he sent me." (John 7:29, NASB)

"For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came forth from the Father." (John 16:27, NASB)

In prayer to the Father: "For the words which You gave me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believe that You sent me." (John 17:8, NASB)

Representative, according to the Oxford Dictionary, means: "a delegate, or, substitute."
As "represenative" not a Bible word, is 1 Pet4:11 fits to your explanation of representative?
Jesus is the "image" of God, Greek word "eikon" means "figure" of the invisible God.(Col 1:15)
Jesus is mighty God, and why He is called "the everlasting Father?(Isa 9:6)
The Father also is called mighty God. (Isa 10:20,21)
Jesus is El Gibbor--mighty god. Jehovah is Almighty God--El Shaddai. So Jesus can be called a god, which only means a mighty spirit Person. A god can be a man in high position, but of course Jesus is not a man at this time...he is at the right hand of the Almighty God.

Jesus is called "everlasting father" because he is the origin of the fact that mankind is being given life by his actions. A father is a life-giver. Jesus has given all of us the hope of eternal life.

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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #75

Post by Capbook »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 1:05 pm
Capbook wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 2:10 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 12:55 pm
Capbook wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:28 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2024 8:14 pm
Capbook wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 1:29 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 9:25 am
Eloi wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:52 pm If Jesus and his Father shared the same "essence" (whatever that term used by Trinitarians defines), should they not have the same will? They should ... and what are the biblical facts?

Matt. 26:42 Again, a second time, he went off and prayed: “My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass away unless I drink it, let your will take place.”

So, Jesus desired to be spared from a death that would bring dishonor to his Father's name in the eyes of the Jews, but he was willing to surrender his will to his Father's.

Obviously, they are two different persons and each one of them has his own personality and will... which does not imply, of course, that the personality of Jesus can perfectly reflect the personality of his Father, either by habit of closeness, by own decision/will or simply because he was created in the image of God.

And there again: they are not "co-equals" or share absolutly everything.

Luke 22:42 (...) “Father, if you want to, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.”
.
Yes, they are equal in the state of being God. (Col 2:9)
Lexicon define Godhead in Greek "theotes" as state of being God.
The Father is superior in rank, position or role but they are equal in the nature of God.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

θεότης theotēs
Thayer Definition:
1) deity
1a) the state of being God, Godhead
That is not what "theotes" means if we are to look at this truthfully. There are versions of the Bible that translate it as "deity," "godship," or "divine quality." There is no such Being as a three-headed God. There is God (the Father), and His Son who is His representative and the reflected image of His godship or deity. One Person as God, and only the Father.

Yes, deity is also one of the definition, and the second definition is "the state of being God".
I've shown you lexicon definition and you insist of Jesus role as representative.
May I know what verse that says Jesus is a representative? Or any lexicon to prove your point.
I am looking at the Scriptures themselves and reasoning on them. There are verses that say that Jesus is from God and God sent him, therefore it can be said that he is God's representative. God did not come here, so He sent Jesus instead. Isn't that tantamount to being a representative of God? Everything Jesus said and did was the Father's will. He said: "I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father Himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak....Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me, so I speak." (John 12: 49,50)

"I know Him, because I am from Him, and he sent me." (John 7:29, NASB)

"For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came forth from the Father." (John 16:27, NASB)

In prayer to the Father: "For the words which You gave me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believe that You sent me." (John 17:8, NASB)

Representative, according to the Oxford Dictionary, means: "a delegate, or, substitute."
As "represenative" not a Bible word, is 1 Pet4:11 fits to your explanation of representative?
Jesus is the "image" of God, Greek word "eikon" means "figure" of the invisible God.(Col 1:15)
Jesus is mighty God, and why He is called "the everlasting Father?(Isa 9:6)
The Father also is called mighty God. (Isa 10:20,21)
Jesus is El Gibbor--mighty god. Jehovah is Almighty God--El Shaddai. So Jesus can be called a god, which only means a mighty spirit Person. A god can be a man in high position, but of course Jesus is not a man at this time...he is at the right hand of the Almighty God.

Jesus is called "everlasting father" because he is the origin of the fact that mankind is being given life by his actions. A father is a life-giver. Jesus has given all of us the hope of eternal life.
And why is the Father " Gibbor" in Isa 10:20,21? Do that mean that the Father can be called god, which only means a mighty spirit person?
Jesus was prophesied to be born to be on earth and to be called mighty God, everlasting Father.
In John 17:3, how can a Christian experience eternal life? I hope there's a reply to this.

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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #76

Post by onewithhim »

Capbook wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2024 1:01 pm
onewithhim wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 1:05 pm
Capbook wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 2:10 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 12:55 pm
Capbook wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:28 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2024 8:14 pm
Capbook wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 1:29 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 9:25 am
Eloi wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:52 pm If Jesus and his Father shared the same "essence" (whatever that term used by Trinitarians defines), should they not have the same will? They should ... and what are the biblical facts?

Matt. 26:42 Again, a second time, he went off and prayed: “My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass away unless I drink it, let your will take place.”

So, Jesus desired to be spared from a death that would bring dishonor to his Father's name in the eyes of the Jews, but he was willing to surrender his will to his Father's.

Obviously, they are two different persons and each one of them has his own personality and will... which does not imply, of course, that the personality of Jesus can perfectly reflect the personality of his Father, either by habit of closeness, by own decision/will or simply because he was created in the image of God.

And there again: they are not "co-equals" or share absolutly everything.

Luke 22:42 (...) “Father, if you want to, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.”
.
Yes, they are equal in the state of being God. (Col 2:9)
Lexicon define Godhead in Greek "theotes" as state of being God.
The Father is superior in rank, position or role but they are equal in the nature of God.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

θεότης theotēs
Thayer Definition:
1) deity
1a) the state of being God, Godhead
That is not what "theotes" means if we are to look at this truthfully. There are versions of the Bible that translate it as "deity," "godship," or "divine quality." There is no such Being as a three-headed God. There is God (the Father), and His Son who is His representative and the reflected image of His godship or deity. One Person as God, and only the Father.

Yes, deity is also one of the definition, and the second definition is "the state of being God".
I've shown you lexicon definition and you insist of Jesus role as representative.
May I know what verse that says Jesus is a representative? Or any lexicon to prove your point.
I am looking at the Scriptures themselves and reasoning on them. There are verses that say that Jesus is from God and God sent him, therefore it can be said that he is God's representative. God did not come here, so He sent Jesus instead. Isn't that tantamount to being a representative of God? Everything Jesus said and did was the Father's will. He said: "I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father Himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak....Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me, so I speak." (John 12: 49,50)

"I know Him, because I am from Him, and he sent me." (John 7:29, NASB)

"For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came forth from the Father." (John 16:27, NASB)

In prayer to the Father: "For the words which You gave me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believe that You sent me." (John 17:8, NASB)

Representative, according to the Oxford Dictionary, means: "a delegate, or, substitute."
As "represenative" not a Bible word, is 1 Pet4:11 fits to your explanation of representative?
Jesus is the "image" of God, Greek word "eikon" means "figure" of the invisible God.(Col 1:15)
Jesus is mighty God, and why He is called "the everlasting Father?(Isa 9:6)
The Father also is called mighty God. (Isa 10:20,21)
Jesus is El Gibbor--mighty god. Jehovah is Almighty God--El Shaddai. So Jesus can be called a god, which only means a mighty spirit Person. A god can be a man in high position, but of course Jesus is not a man at this time...he is at the right hand of the Almighty God.

Jesus is called "everlasting father" because he is the origin of the fact that mankind is being given life by his actions. A father is a life-giver. Jesus has given all of us the hope of eternal life.
And why is the Father " Gibbor" in Isa 10:20,21? Do that mean that the Father can be called god, which only means a mighty spirit person?
Jesus was prophesied to be born to be on earth and to be called mighty God, everlasting Father.
In John 17:3, how can a Christian experience eternal life? I hope there's a reply to this.
The Father is both---mighty and almighty. Jesus is only mighty. He is never called El Shaddai in the Scriptures.

John 17:3 shows that the Father is the only true God. Eternal life means knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ, sent by God.

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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #77

Post by Capbook »

onewithhim wrote: Sun Nov 10, 2024 6:08 pm
Capbook wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2024 1:01 pm
onewithhim wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 1:05 pm
Capbook wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 2:10 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 12:55 pm
Capbook wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:28 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2024 8:14 pm
Capbook wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 1:29 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 9:25 am
Eloi wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:52 pm If Jesus and his Father shared the same "essence" (whatever that term used by Trinitarians defines), should they not have the same will? They should ... and what are the biblical facts?

Matt. 26:42 Again, a second time, he went off and prayed: “My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass away unless I drink it, let your will take place.”

So, Jesus desired to be spared from a death that would bring dishonor to his Father's name in the eyes of the Jews, but he was willing to surrender his will to his Father's.

Obviously, they are two different persons and each one of them has his own personality and will... which does not imply, of course, that the personality of Jesus can perfectly reflect the personality of his Father, either by habit of closeness, by own decision/will or simply because he was created in the image of God.

And there again: they are not "co-equals" or share absolutly everything.

Luke 22:42 (...) “Father, if you want to, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.”
.
Yes, they are equal in the state of being God. (Col 2:9)
Lexicon define Godhead in Greek "theotes" as state of being God.
The Father is superior in rank, position or role but they are equal in the nature of God.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

θεότης theotēs
Thayer Definition:
1) deity
1a) the state of being God, Godhead
That is not what "theotes" means if we are to look at this truthfully. There are versions of the Bible that translate it as "deity," "godship," or "divine quality." There is no such Being as a three-headed God. There is God (the Father), and His Son who is His representative and the reflected image of His godship or deity. One Person as God, and only the Father.

Yes, deity is also one of the definition, and the second definition is "the state of being God".
I've shown you lexicon definition and you insist of Jesus role as representative.
May I know what verse that says Jesus is a representative? Or any lexicon to prove your point.
I am looking at the Scriptures themselves and reasoning on them. There are verses that say that Jesus is from God and God sent him, therefore it can be said that he is God's representative. God did not come here, so He sent Jesus instead. Isn't that tantamount to being a representative of God? Everything Jesus said and did was the Father's will. He said: "I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father Himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak....Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me, so I speak." (John 12: 49,50)

"I know Him, because I am from Him, and he sent me." (John 7:29, NASB)

"For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came forth from the Father." (John 16:27, NASB)

In prayer to the Father: "For the words which You gave me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believe that You sent me." (John 17:8, NASB)

Representative, according to the Oxford Dictionary, means: "a delegate, or, substitute."
As "represenative" not a Bible word, is 1 Pet4:11 fits to your explanation of representative?
Jesus is the "image" of God, Greek word "eikon" means "figure" of the invisible God.(Col 1:15)
Jesus is mighty God, and why He is called "the everlasting Father?(Isa 9:6)
The Father also is called mighty God. (Isa 10:20,21)
Jesus is El Gibbor--mighty god. Jehovah is Almighty God--El Shaddai. So Jesus can be called a god, which only means a mighty spirit Person. A god can be a man in high position, but of course Jesus is not a man at this time...he is at the right hand of the Almighty God.

Jesus is called "everlasting father" because he is the origin of the fact that mankind is being given life by his actions. A father is a life-giver. Jesus has given all of us the hope of eternal life.
And why is the Father " Gibbor" in Isa 10:20,21? Do that mean that the Father can be called god, which only means a mighty spirit person?
Jesus was prophesied to be born to be on earth and to be called mighty God, everlasting Father.
In John 17:3, how can a Christian experience eternal life? I hope there's a reply to this.
The Father is both---mighty and almighty. Jesus is only mighty. He is never called El Shaddai in the Scriptures.

John 17:3 shows that the Father is the only true God. Eternal life means knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ, sent by God.
Yes, for Christians to experience eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ, to truly know them.(1John 5:20)
You have said that Jesus is "the first and the last" but in the book of Revelation the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, and the first and the last are always connected where apostle John see the voice (not voices) that speak to him one like the Son of man.(Rev 1:11-13)
As the Father and Jesus as "El Gibbor".
And also, "The first and the last" Jesus as mentioned together with "the Alpha and Omega", and "the beginning and the end" in Rev 22:12,13, whom is the Almighty in Rev 1:8.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #78

Post by onewithhim »

Capbook wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 3:27 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Nov 10, 2024 6:08 pm
Capbook wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2024 1:01 pm
onewithhim wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 1:05 pm
Capbook wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 2:10 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 12:55 pm
Capbook wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:28 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2024 8:14 pm
Capbook wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 1:29 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 9:25 am

.
Yes, they are equal in the state of being God. (Col 2:9)
Lexicon define Godhead in Greek "theotes" as state of being God.
The Father is superior in rank, position or role but they are equal in the nature of God.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

θεότης theotēs
Thayer Definition:
1) deity
1a) the state of being God, Godhead
That is not what "theotes" means if we are to look at this truthfully. There are versions of the Bible that translate it as "deity," "godship," or "divine quality." There is no such Being as a three-headed God. There is God (the Father), and His Son who is His representative and the reflected image of His godship or deity. One Person as God, and only the Father.

Yes, deity is also one of the definition, and the second definition is "the state of being God".
I've shown you lexicon definition and you insist of Jesus role as representative.
May I know what verse that says Jesus is a representative? Or any lexicon to prove your point.
I am looking at the Scriptures themselves and reasoning on them. There are verses that say that Jesus is from God and God sent him, therefore it can be said that he is God's representative. God did not come here, so He sent Jesus instead. Isn't that tantamount to being a representative of God? Everything Jesus said and did was the Father's will. He said: "I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father Himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak....Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me, so I speak." (John 12: 49,50)

"I know Him, because I am from Him, and he sent me." (John 7:29, NASB)

"For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came forth from the Father." (John 16:27, NASB)

In prayer to the Father: "For the words which You gave me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believe that You sent me." (John 17:8, NASB)

Representative, according to the Oxford Dictionary, means: "a delegate, or, substitute."
As "represenative" not a Bible word, is 1 Pet4:11 fits to your explanation of representative?
Jesus is the "image" of God, Greek word "eikon" means "figure" of the invisible God.(Col 1:15)
Jesus is mighty God, and why He is called "the everlasting Father?(Isa 9:6)
The Father also is called mighty God. (Isa 10:20,21)
Jesus is El Gibbor--mighty god. Jehovah is Almighty God--El Shaddai. So Jesus can be called a god, which only means a mighty spirit Person. A god can be a man in high position, but of course Jesus is not a man at this time...he is at the right hand of the Almighty God.

Jesus is called "everlasting father" because he is the origin of the fact that mankind is being given life by his actions. A father is a life-giver. Jesus has given all of us the hope of eternal life.
And why is the Father " Gibbor" in Isa 10:20,21? Do that mean that the Father can be called god, which only means a mighty spirit person?
Jesus was prophesied to be born to be on earth and to be called mighty God, everlasting Father.
In John 17:3, how can a Christian experience eternal life? I hope there's a reply to this.
The Father is both---mighty and almighty. Jesus is only mighty. He is never called El Shaddai in the Scriptures.

John 17:3 shows that the Father is the only true God. Eternal life means knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ, sent by God.
Yes, for Christians to experience eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ, to truly know them.(1John 5:20)
You have said that Jesus is "the first and the last" but in the book of Revelation the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, and the first and the last are always connected where apostle John see the voice (not voices) that speak to him one like the Son of man.(Rev 1:11-13)
As the Father and Jesus as "El Gibbor".
And also, "The first and the last" Jesus as mentioned together with "the Alpha and Omega", and "the beginning and the end" in Rev 22:12,13, whom is the Almighty in Rev 1:8.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev.1:8 applies to Jehovah, the Father. He is the Almighty. He is also the Alpha and Omega. Jesus is never called Alpha and Omega, as you could see if you looked at an Interlinear Bible, which I have asked you to do up until now. He is "the first and the last," but the Greek letters are different than "Alpha and Omega." There are two different meanings going on here.

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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #79

Post by Difflugia »

onewithhim wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2024 6:10 pmRev.1:8 applies to Jehovah, the Father. He is the Almighty. He is also the Alpha and Omega. Jesus is never called Alpha and Omega, as you could see if you looked at an Interlinear Bible, which I have asked you to do up until now. He is "the first and the last," but the Greek letters are different than "Alpha and Omega." There are two different meanings going on here.
After repeatedly asking you what you think an interlinear is supposed to tell us and getting no help from you, I think I figured out what you're trying to get across. I think. I hope. It actually has nothing to do with an interlinear.

The problem is that Capbook is quoting from the King James Version, which uses a different Greek text than most modern, eclectic versions, including the New World Translation. The words that you think are different in an interlinear are just missing in your interlinear, because they're not in your Greek text in the first place.

Here's Capbook's quotation of Revelation 1:11:
Capbook wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 3:27 pmRev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
The Greek of the Textus Receptus reads this way:
λεγουσης εγω ειμι το Α και το Ω ο πρωτος και ο εσχατος και ο βλεπεις γραψον εις βιβλιον και πεμψον ταις επτα εκκλησιαις ταις εν ασια εις εφεσον και εις σμυρναν και εις περγαμον και εις θυατειρα και εις σαρδεις και εις φιλαδελφειαν και εις λαοδικειαν
I changed Capbook's red markup slightly. Now, in both English and Greek, the bits in red aren't in the NWT, but are in the Textus Receptus, the KJV, and the NKJV. According to the apparatus I checked, this is also common to a number of later Byzantine texts and at least one Vulgate.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: Are members of the Trinity really "co-equal"?

Post #80

Post by onewithhim »

Difflugia wrote: Mon Nov 18, 2024 10:38 am
onewithhim wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2024 6:10 pmRev.1:8 applies to Jehovah, the Father. He is the Almighty. He is also the Alpha and Omega. Jesus is never called Alpha and Omega, as you could see if you looked at an Interlinear Bible, which I have asked you to do up until now. He is "the first and the last," but the Greek letters are different than "Alpha and Omega." There are two different meanings going on here.
After repeatedly asking you what you think an interlinear is supposed to tell us and getting no help from you, I think I figured out what you're trying to get across. I think. I hope. It actually has nothing to do with an interlinear.

The problem is that Capbook is quoting from the King James Version, which uses a different Greek text than most modern, eclectic versions, including the New World Translation. The words that you think are different in an interlinear are just missing in your interlinear, because they're not in your Greek text in the first place.
I have answered what an Interlinear has to offer by way of showing that "Alpha and Omega" and "first and last" are written differently in the Greek text. You just don't accept my reasoning. BTW, I haven't been referring to "our" Interlinear Bible. I have been citing Hendrickson's Interlinear Bible in Hebrew, Greek and English, J.P. Green, General Editor and Translator, 1976.

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