Hugo Chavez and "Bolivarism"

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Split from the Pat Robertson thread...

He is a public figure making good money with his insane rantings.

And feeding and clothing the poor.

Which is would explain his opposition to Chavez, a man who (*gasp*) uses his country's massive oil profits to support the needy!

Doubling the Venezualan weekly minimum wage?!?! We Christians cannot stand for this abomination!

Put good old Hugo in charge of Pat's profits. Poverty would be abolished overnight.




But seriously, we all know the real reason Robertson despises Chavez. Don't pretend you don't. All that precious oil money could be going to US corporations, who would be further equipted to continue their highly successful plight of screwing over the American people. Don't let his preaching of "moral values" fool you, all any true Right-Winger wants is to further fatten our friendly American corporate overlord's wallets.

So, why don't the Bush Administration and the right-wing extremists and religious fanatics in the U.S. like Hugo Chavez? Venezuela, after all, supplies the U.S. with 12 per cent of its imported oil and sits on top of the eighth largest known oil field in the world.

Oil is the problem — not that Venezuela has it, but what Hugo Chavez does with it. Rather than gratuitously fatten the profit margins of the international oil companies, the Venezuelan government under Chavez extracts higher taxes and fees from those companies, and plows that money back into the people of Venezuela. He facilitates the formation of grassroots organizations and worker cooperatives amongst Venezuela's poor.


He has increased the minimum wage from about $25 per week to about $40 per week, and raised personal income taxes up to a rate of 10-15 per cent. He has established food programs to feed the poor and traded oil to Cuba for doctors and teachers who provide free health care to the poor and enhanced educational opportunities. He has used oil wealth to increase public works in order to provide more jobs for Venezuelans.

Imagine, using national resources to improve the national society and raise living standards for the poorest citizens. Imagine increasing access to education, health care and affordable food. It flies in the face of modern, corporate capitalism and the demand for ever lower costs for resources and labour.

And, as far as the U.S. and its corporate sponsors are concerned, it sets a bad example for the rest of Latin America. Imagine if Chavez's programs of redirecting wealth to the people of the countries where it is produced rather than letting it be sucked out by foreign investors should catch on. That is the other part of the problem.

Chavez has named his political and social philosophy Bolivarianism and is pursuing a Bolivarian Revolution, not just for Venezuela but for most of South America. The name comes from that of Simon Bolivar who liberated what are now Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, Columbia and Venezuela from Spain in the early 19th Century. In this century Chavez is providing support to populist movements in neighbouring countries, a move clearly designed to spread his Bolivarian philosophy throughout the South American continent.

He is making oil deals with Brazil and Argentina and advocating Latin American military and trade alliances to challenge the power of the U.S. in the region. Venezuela, too, is the major partner in a Latin American satellite television network, Telesur, along with Argentina, Cuba and Uruguay, which will provide a counter point to the messages broadcast to South America by U.S. networks like CNN.

Chavez is plainly becoming a regional leader in an area long dominated by U.S. influence and interference. Like Simon Bolivar before him, who challenged the rule of the Spanish, Chavez has become a challenge in the region to the power of the United States.

As you can see, a truly evil man.

[Chimp]

What you fail to mention is...the CD was never released by the education
department...they commisioned the video and when they reviewed the final
product they decided it was not suitable for teens and BANNED it.

[MagusYanam]

Anyone else find it funny that 1John2_26 has not answered any of our arguments or addressed any of the actual data on the other side of the issue? Like AlAyeti before him, he's just using this forum as a sounding board for demagoguery. You could show him any argument or statistic you like, no matter how flawless in its presentation or its objective validity, and he would just keep spewing this hateful rubbish he'd garnered from the darkest and most unreliable corners of the Internet. Evidence means nothing here, apparently.

Until he begins addressing the actual arguments and treating his fellow forum-goers with the respect they are due by the rules of this forum, I think we'd better not allow him the dignity of seeing his arguments taken seriously. Especially since they are not in keeping with the 'Christian' values he claims to expound.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

I see you have completely abandoned the entire economics portion of the debate.



Your first article. The EU is taking measures to end sex slavery. Wow, how evil of them. By the way, are you under the impression that the United States is not home to prostitutes?

From The Future of Freedom.org:

Recent research indicates that over one million women in the United States earn their living by full-time prostitution. Furthermore, roughly one in every six American men has been a willing client of a prostitute within the past five years. Even more interesting and alarming is the fact that engaging in sex with a prostitute is now the third most common way for an American male to contract the AIDS virus.

Also, while you are correct in assuming that prostitution is LEGAL in most European nations (including the socialist ones), this does not mean the governments sponsor them. In reality, the practice of prostitution is effectively rendered illegal through restrictions on organising, advertising and living off the proceeds. Based on the alarming sex figures I posted comparing the US to Europe, I would say we can safely say that there is a MUCH higher percentage of prostitutes in the United States.


The second article, "Are we living under the Communist Manifesto". One sided propaganda (especially that of which never cites a single tidbit of evidence) does not hold much wieght in this debate. I could give you a million anti-conservative tyrades of this like. They would not mean a thing.

And Europe's covert sexual appetite is well documented.

You mean, like in the TWO different compilations of statistics I provided?

I struggle to imagine how you can ignore such definitive evidence. Socialist Europe's sex rates are a QUARTER of America's rates. It is well-documented fact. I can find more charts concerning this matter, if you are still not convinced.

I see it as just about impossible to believe in the Biblical Christ and be a socialist.

Surely you must be talking about a different Christ.

Once again:

"Whoever has two shirts should share with the person who doesn't have any."
- Jesus, Luke 3:11

"Sell your material possessions, and give the money to the poor."
- Jesus, Luk 12:33

All the believers kept meeting together, and they shared everything with each other. From time to time, they sold their property and other possessions and distributed the money to anyone who needed it.
- Jesus' followers, Acts 2:44-45

The whole group of believers lived in harmony. No one called any of his possessions his own. Instead, they shared everything.
.....
From time to time, people sold land or houses and brought the money
to the apostles. Then the money was distributed to anyone who needed it.
- Jesus' followers, Acts 4: 32, 35


Is it possible to be a Christian and NOT be a Socialist? The underlined portions demonstrate the very definition of socialism. Ever read a Bible passage instructing us to compete for wealth?



The "Democrat Socialists of America" quote. Young people urged to fight against "racism, sexism, homophobia, and greed".

Sure, that's evil. If you are misogynic white elitist who hoards massive wealth, and reject any notion of civil rights.

Seriously, where are you seeing the evil here? I might just become a "Democratic Socialist of America" now.

I suppose your main issue is that homosexuals are mentioned without being belittled to the point of being considered sub-human. Please, take your bigotry over to the Middle East where it belongs. I'm sure the oppressive theocratic regimes there will appreciate your views on gays.

As for the last link, I believe Chimp has it well covered.

[1John2_26]

STATEMENT OF PRINCIPLES

http://sp-usa.org/

THE SOCIALIST PARTY strives to establish a radical democracy that places people's lives under their own control -- a non-racist, classless, feminist, socialist society in which people cooperate at work, at home, and in the community.

The "diversity" spawned by "socialists" bent on overthrowing America by segmented and seperated cultures make "cooperation" impossible. This cooperation is not a pipedream but a hullucination.

Socialism is not mere government ownership, a welfare state, or a repressive bureaucracy. Socialism is a new social and economic order in which workers and consumers control production and community residents control their neighborhoods, homes, and schools.

Christians have tried this and are labeled bigots, homophobes and xenophobes. They are silenced in schools and the public square. By socialist-liberals.

The production of society is used for the benefit of all humanity, not for the private profit of a few. Socialism produces a constantly renewed future by not plundering the resources of the earth.

Private land ownership is indeed going to be outlawed by these freedom" fighters." The collective will proclaim its power.

Under capitalist and "Communist" states, people have little control over fundamental areas of their lives.

Christians especially. As we will see.

The capitalist system forces workers to sell their abilities and skills to the few who own the workplaces, profit from these workers' labor, and use the government to maintain their privileged position.

How about motivating people to invent the incredible things under a free market economy? What motivates socialist lemmings?

Under "Communist" states, decisions are made by Communist Party officials, the bureaucracy and the military.

Which is the exact same thing as socialism.

The inevitable product of each system is a class society with gross inequality of privileges, a draining of the productive wealth and goods of the society into military purposes, environmental pollution, and war in which workers are compelled to fight other workers.

Business competition has literally bettered the world. Even in Europe.

People across the world need to cast off the systems which oppress them, and build a new world fit for all humanity. Democratic revolutions are needed to dissolve the power now exercised by the few who control great wealth and the government.

Bring it on commies. It always boils down to violence with socialists get frustrated.

By revolution we mean a radical and fundamental change in the structure and quality of economic, political, and personal relations. The building of socialism requires widespread understanding and participation, and will not be achieved by an elite working "on behalf of" the people.

Revisionist history and redefining morality is the key to socialism's rise to create a new paradigm prompted by jealousy.

The working class is in a key and central position to fight back against the ruling capitalist class and its power. The working class is the major force worldwide that can lead the way to a socialist future – to a real radical democracy from below.

The uneducated and unmotivated cannot lead anyone for long.

Radical democracy is the cornerstone not only of our socialism, but also of our strategy. Here are the main features of each:

Socialist Society

Who gets to be top dog? Politics won't change.

Freedom & Equality

The uneducted and inept can lead no one.

Democratic socialism is a political and economic system with freedom and equality for all, so that people may develop to their fullest potential in harmony with others.

Or be imprisoned if they want to be free.

The Socialist Party is committed to full freedom of speech, assembly, press, and religion, and to a multi-party system.

As long as the religions (the opiate of the people?) don't believe in God.

We are dedicated to the abolition of male supremacy and class society, and to the elimination of all forms of oppression, including those based on race, national origin, age, sexual preferences, and disabling conditions.

So much for religion in a socialist society. Unless you have no beliefs.

Production For Use, Not For Profit

Which will motivate no one.

In a socialist system the people own and control the means of production and distribution through democratically controlled public agencies, cooperatives, or other collective groups.

Communism. That is what that menas. KGB or Gestapo controlled?

The primary goal of economic activity is to provide the necessities of life, including food, shelter, health care, education, child care, cultural opportunities, and social services.

And for people that live moraal and decent lives to have half of their money going to those that choose addcitions and debauchery with its resulting conseuences.

These social services include care for the chronically ill, persons with mental disabilities, the infirm and the aging.

Which means killing them. Socialists call this euthanasia. How nice.

Planning takes place at the community, regional, and national levels, and is determined democratically with the input of workers, consumers, and the public to be served.

Unless your to old, sick or feeble to speak. Then you get off'd.

Full Employment

Comrade. Communism peeks out again.

Under welfare capitalism, a reserve pool of people is kept undereducated, under-skilled and unemployed, largely along racial and gender lines, to exert pressure on those who are employed and on organized labor.

Under socialism: legalized drugs and unlimited handouts to keep the immoral quiet and unseen.


PART TWO CONTINUED:

[1John2_26]

PART TWO

The employed pay for this knife that capitalism holds to their throats by being taxed to fund welfare programs to maintain the unemployed and their children.

This is called political spin. Socialism legalizes drugs and sexual perversion and child-sex slavery ("age of consent," what's that?) and there is no dissent from anyone about it. That's a socialist society European style.

In this way the working class is divided against itself; those with jobs and those without are separated by resentment and fear. In socialism, full employment is realized for everyone who wants to work.

And those that do not want to work and stay on drugs and have illigitamate children still get paid exactly the same amount of maoney that a socialist totalitarian government dolls out. To all.

Worker & Community Control

Democracy in daily life is the core of our socialism. Public ownership becomes a fraud if decisions are made by distant bureaucrats or authoritarian managers. In socialist society power resides in worker-managed and cooperative enterprises. Community-based cooperatives help provide the flexibility and innovation required in a dynamic socialist economy.

This is the language used by Hitler to also trick the unsuspecting fool to think that youcan get something for nothing.

Workers have the right to form unions freely, and to strike and engage in other forms of job actions.

But not to have dreams of an exceptional life. Just one part of the collective is allowed.

Worker and community control make it possible to combine life at work, home and in the community into a meaningful whole for adults and children. Girls and boys are encouraged to grow up able to choose freely the shape of their lives and work without gender and racial stereotyping.

Which means that parents cannot shape their own childrens lives without "the community" deciding the final picture. See California for an example. Parents have no rights to their own children once they are snared by the "education system."

Children are provided with the care, goods and services, and support that they need, and are protected from abuse.

Which hasn't happened yet in socialist countries. What children get is condom-morality. No stats are kept for abortions by pills and promiscuity that is seen as common acceptable behavior.

Ecological Harmony

A socialist society carefully plans its way of life and technology to be a harmonious part of our natural environment.

This meand Darwinian evolution sets the course for "laws."

This planning takes place on regional, national, and international levels and covers the production of energy, the use of scarce resources, land-use planning, the prevention of pollution and the preservation of wildlife.

As was seen in the USSR and China and Cuba.

The cleanup of the contaminated environment and the creation of a nuclear-free world are among the first tasks of a socialist society.

The first decent thing we come to.

Socialist Strategy

Socialist Feminism and Women's Liberation

Socialist feminism confronts the common root of sexism, racism and classism: the determination of a life of oppression or privilege based on accidents of birth or circumstances.

Which is socialim's redefining of morality. No consequences for sexual promiscuity except killing the most innocent person in the scenario.

Socialist feminism is an inclusive way of creating social change. We value synthesis and cooperation rather than conflict and competition.

Mind and body control. Why aren't men given the same rights of reproductive privilege. Feminism has the smell of legalized prostitution.

We work against the exploitation and oppression of women who live with lower wages, inferior working conditions and subordination in the home, in society and in politics. Socialists struggle for the full freedom of women and men to control their own bodies and reproductive systems and to determine their own sexual orientation.

Always sexual debauchery in socialism. It is a fascinating fact.

We stand for the right of women to choose to have a safe and legal abortion, at no cost, regardless of age, race, or circumstance.

Slaughter of the most innocent to pay the cost of the most guilty. Very USSR.

Women’s independent organizations and caucuses are essential to full liberation, both before and after the transformation to socialism. Women will define their own liberation.

While denying and oppressing men's rights. Interesting.

Liberation of Oppressed People

Bigotry and discrimination help the ruling class divide, exploit, and abuse workers here and in the Third World. The Socialist Party works to eliminate prejudice and discrimination in all its forms. We recognize the right of self-defense in the face of attacks; we also support non-violent direct action in combating oppression. We fully support strong and expanded affirmative action programs to help combat the entrenched inertia of a racist and sexist system which profits from discrimination and social division.

By legalizing drugs and prostitution?

People of color, lesbians and gays, and other oppressed groups need independent organization to fight oppression.

Which means silencing outlawing Christians. The ones that believe in the Bible.

Racism will not be eliminated merely by eliminating capitalism.

Though it will not stop the legalized hatred of white people.

International Solidarity & Peace

People around the world have more in common with each other than with their rulers. We condemn war, preparation for war, and the militaristic culture because they play havoc with people's lives and divert resources from constructive social projects.

By disarming the people and denying citizens the right to defend themselves from, of course, the socialists that will enforce "the laws."

Militarism also concentrates even greater power in the hands of the few, the powerful and the violent. We align with no nation, but only with working people throughout the world.

In China, Cuba and Cambodia.

Internal Democracy

Socialism and democracy are one and indivisible.

Though no one will ever be able to vote out the socialists once the have a death grip on power.

The Socialist Party is democratic, with its structure and practices visible and accessible to all members.

Those that do not dissent or oppose socialism.

We reject dogma and promote internal debate. The Socialist Party is a "multi-tendency" organization. We orient ourselves around our principles and develop a common program, but our members have various underlying philosophies and views of the world. Solidarity within the party comes from the ability of those with divergent views on some issues to engage in a collective struggle towards social revolution. We strive to develop feminist practice within the party.

And Christians are again denounced, denigrated and eliminated by the members underlying philosophies that hate Christians. As can be seen in todays socialist European countries like Sweden that arrested and convicted a Christian Pastor that went against the philosophies of the "multi-tendency" organizations.

Cultural Freedom

Art is an integral part of daily life. It should not be treated as just a commodity produced by the activity of an elite group. Socialists work to create opportunities for participation in art and cultural activities.

Like a crucifix in a jar of urine. It is called "art."

We work for the restoration and preservation of the history and culture of working people, women, and oppressed minorities.

This means anything except Christian art. That can only be maintained in churches sanctioned by the state.

The Personal as Political

Living under domination and struggling against it exact a personal toll. Socialists regard the distortion of personal life and interpersonal relations under capitalism as a political matter.

By legalizing prostitution and illicit drug use.

Socialism must ultimately improve life; this cannot be accomplished by demanding that personal lives be sacrificed for the movement. We cherish the right of personal privacy and the enrichment of culture through diversity.

Socialism's "diversity." No dissent.

Electoral Action

Socialists participate in the electoral process to present socialist alternatives. The Socialist Party does not divorce electoral politics from other strategies for basic change. While a minority, we fight for progressive changes compatible with a socialist future.

That once in power will move quickly to deny the democratic process from ever overthrowing socialists from power.

When a majority we will rapidly introduce those changes, which constitute socialism, with priority to the elimination of the power of big business through public ownership and workers' control.

PUBLIC OWNERSHIP IS COMMUNISM. We socialists hide in plain sight. people that want freedom will be denied this basic human dream.

By participating in local government, socialists can support movements of working people and make improvements that illustrate the potential of public ownership.

Which of course was just mentioned to eliminate personal freedoms under socialist rule. See? In plain sight.

We support electoral action independent of the capitalist-controlled two-party system.

By replacing it with one-party rule. Ruled by one powerful leader. See Venezuela.

Democratic Revolution From Below

Always violent overthrow lurking.

No oppressed group has ever been liberated except by its own organized efforts to overthrow its oppressors.

Like Lenin, Stalin and Mao. Socialisms grand historical heores.

A society based on radical democracy, with power exercised through people's organizations, requires a socialist transformation from below. People's organizations cannot be created by legislation, nor can they spring into being only on the eve of a revolution.

One powerful totalitarian group will decide everything for everyone. BUT, will call it freedom for the people. This thread is about that very thing.

They can grow only in the course of popular struggles, especially those of women, labor, and minority groups. The Socialist Party works to build these organizations democratically.

And then end democracy once it takes power.

The process of struggle profoundly shapes the ends achieved.

Revisionism here. It used to be: The ends justify the means. Hitler and Stalin believed this very thing too.

Our tactics in the struggle for radical democratic change reflect our ultimate goal of a society founded on principles of egalitarian, non-exploitative and non-violent relations among all people and between all peoples.

But ends up totalitarian communism.

To be free we must create new patterns for our lives and live in new ways in the midst of a society that does not understand and is often hostile to new, better modes of life.

Like children raised by two married men? Although it goes against Darwinian principles.

Our aim is the creation of a new social order, a society in which the commanding value is the infinite preciousness of every woman, man and child.

Except in the womb. Then it can be killed for the convenience of women and men that want unlimited and unrestrained sexual intercourse without consequences. Except of course to the person being slaughtered in the womb.

If you agree with these principles, then we would encourage you to join the Socialist Party.

Which of course you cannot if you are a "Bible-believing" Christian.

Or, a parent (married to a person of the opposite sex) that loves their children and wants to raise them outside of the collective moral paradigm of socialist ideology.

Then of course you would be the enemy of socialist goals.


From wikipedia:

In Marxist theory, it also refers to the society that would succeed or supplant capitalism, and would later develop further into communism, as the necessity for the socialist structure would wither away. Marxism and communism are both branches of socialism.

[1John2_26]

Anyone else find it funny that 1John2_26 has not answered any of our arguments or addressed any of the actual data on the other side of the issue? Like AlAyeti before him, he's just using this forum as a sounding board for demagoguery. You could show him any argument or statistic you like, no matter how flawless in its presentation or its objective validity, and he would just keep spewing this hateful rubbish he'd garnered from the darkest and most unreliable corners of the Internet. Evidence means nothing here, apparently.

The darkest corners of the internet, socialists support with civil rights and hate crimes legislation. Why should anyone believe any "stats" from the left, or the right?

We could battle url's all-day.

Here's a story from a socialist country. With stats even.

Please notice this in the story. Good ol' European (apathetic) morality. God is out, guess what comes in?

But Ray Wyre, a sexual crime consultant who has treated offenders, said the problem may have been worse in the past than society had realised.

"Before 1988 child pornography, the possession of it, was not an offence," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

"Up until then I had clients who had even been given back the child pornography after they'd hands-on abused because there was no power to keep it."

Net blamed for rise in child porn
Child porn crimes have risen by 1,500% since 1988 and new internet mobile phones could make things even worse, according to a children's charity.
The internet is largely to blame for the huge rise in child porn offences, according to a report by NCH, formerly National Children's Homes.

The charity says 549 child porn offenders were charged or cautioned in 2001, compared with only 35 in 1988.

The charity fears new third generation 3G phones, with video streaming, will lead to even more offences because they are in some ways even more anonymous.



John Carr, the author of the report, told BBC Radio Five Live: "In pre-internet days, if you wanted to get hold of child abuse images it was quite a difficult thing to do...


SOARING CHILD PORN OFFENCES
1988: 35 cautioned or charged
2001: 549 cautioned or charged (1,500% increase)
Since 1988, 3,022 people in total cautioned or prosecuted
In 2002, in a single day 6,500 Britons were identified as purchasers of child porn from a single US web site
Source: NCH

"The internet completely changed all that. People perhaps with a suppressed or latent interest in it have now got a mechanism... they think the internet is anonymous."

He said offences committed through chat rooms had also been rising "steeply".

But Ray Wyre, a sexual crime consultant who has treated offenders, said the problem may have been worse in the past than society had realised.

"Before 1988 child pornography, the possession of it, was not an offence," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

"Up until then I had clients who had even been given back the child pornography after they'd hands-on abused because there was no power to keep it."

'Abuser by proxy'

Both experts agreed anyone who looked at child porn had to be considered at least a potential "hands-on" paedophile.

"A paedophile is somebody who sexually abuses children," said Mr Carr.

"Anybody who looks at child pornography on the internet is an abuser by proxy.

"And over one in three people found in possession of child pornography, according to a very large American survey, will in fact be involved in hands-on abuse."


HAVE YOUR SAY
Kids and parents need to be both streetwise as well as internet wise.
Andy H, London, UK

On how to control the problem, Mr Carr said censorship would be undesirable and, anyway, technically impossible to implement.

He called on the industry to do more to make the internet safer for children.

He said: "We do need more and better technical solutions, and this is really throwing a challenge down to the industry.

"If we cannot convince the majority of the public that the internet is a safe place for children... in the end the internet as we know it today will cease to exist, and that will be a sad day."

It's technically possible [to track paedophile activities on the net], the only thing there's a shortage of is the actual resources being made available to the police
Dr Rachel O'Connell

Situation 'worse'

The figures for 2002, when they come out, are expected to be much higher even than 2001, because of the impact of Operation Ore, an investigation into 6,500 Britons accused of accessing one US-based child porn site using credit cards.

Dr Rachel O'Connell, director of the Cyberspace Research Centre at the University of Central Lancashire, said that operation had in some ways made the situation worse by taking up so much of police's computer crime units time.

"Most of their resources, if not all, are taken up investigating the cases that were identified in Operation Ore," she told BBC Breakfast.

"It's technically possible [to track paedophile activities on the net], the only thing there's a shortage of is the actual resources being made available to the police."

Hutchison 3G is the only company to have launched the new video phones so far.

It and the other big five mobile phone firms - Vodafone, Virgin, T Mobile, Orange and O2 - are publishing their own code of practice later this month on tackling potential problems.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/t ... 387377.stm

Published: 2004/01/12 13:47:32 GMT

Until he begins addressing the actual arguments and treating his fellow forum-goers with the respect they are due by the rules of this forum, I think we'd better not allow him the dignity of seeing his arguments taken seriously. Especially since they are not in keeping with the 'Christian' values he claims to expound.

There many things that a Christian could agree with a socialist on, but then they want us to sell our souls and sell out Christ for abortion, gay-rights, legalizing prostitution, legalized drug use and porno to be part of our "committment" to "their cause."

That cannot happen and be serving Christ at the same time. No matter how many leftists statistics are used to show a happy face for communism. It is why their is so much animosity from Marxists/socialists, even "progressive Christians," meted out to Christians that value Christ the only way they can, and that is above political power.

It's an interesting debate to see the same old whitewashing of Marxist ideology peddled as something good for mankind.

[MagusYanam]

But not to have dreams of an exceptional life.

Dreams of an exceptional life - pah! A Christian craves not these things.

A Christian hopes only for an exceptional life in the hereafter, and commits his worldly one to service, not to personal gain at the expense of others. In fact, Jesus personally decried the latter attitude. Christianity (and socialism) have this one right in terms of making better people.

Which means that parents cannot shape their own childrens lives without "the community" deciding the final picture. See California for an example. Parents have no rights to their own children once they are snared by the "education system."

That it can be called a 'community' is debatable, but the best citizens tend to be those that grow up in a communal environment, the way the early Christians did. I didn't expect you to stand up for the Roman paternalism on this one, to be honest.

This is called political spin. Socialism legalizes drugs and sexual perversion and child-sex slavery ("age of consent," what's that?) and there is no dissent from anyone about it.

...

There many things that a Christian could agree with a socialist on, but then they want us to sell our souls and sell out Christ for abortion, gay-rights, legalizing prostitution, legalized drug use and porno to be part of our "committment" to "their cause."

You seem to be confusing 'socialist' with 'libertarian' - a grave mistake indeed. Christian socialists generally tend to be pro-life (Consistent Life Ethic, remember), anti-prostitution (prostitution being a form of exploitation by capitalists, also known as pimps) and anti-drug (same reason for drug lords). And (yes) pro-age of consent. Why you choose to ignore these basic tendencies, I have no clue whatsoever. It seems to be the libertarians who push for an end to the drug war and legalising all sorts of behaviour which is now considered illicit.

Also, explain how in a capitalist country, over 80% of young people are having sex before age 20, where in Europe this number is cut down to 60% or less? And why it is in a country which was for so long communist (China), people generally tend to abstain until about age 24, or until marriage?

That cannot happen and be serving Christ at the same time. No matter how many leftists statistics are used to show a happy face for communism. It is why their is so much animosity from Marxists/socialists, even "progressive Christians," meted out to Christians that value Christ the only way they can, and that is above political power.

The way Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson value Christ over political power? Or Mun Seon-Myeong, the self-proclaimed messiah (whom we all know is a real good buddy of Falwell)? Um, yeah right.

Pathetic. You really are reaching for motes in our eyes while you can't see the log in your own.

It's an interesting debate to see the same old whitewashing of Marxist ideology peddled as something good for mankind.

Most of Marxist ideology doesn't need to be whitewashed. It was propounded first by the son of a 1st-century carpenter in ancient Judaea, who also happened to be God - as tPP so aptly demonstrated.

Marxism's only real flaw is in its materialism and in the way Marx addresses its implementation. In the kingdom of Christ, I trust that this will not be an issue.

Here's a story from a socialist country. With stats even.

Please notice this in the story. Good ol' European (apathetic) morality. God is out, guess what comes in?

Notice this in the story you provided. Who is producing the porn and whoring out the children? It's not the Brits.

I also notice that the British authorities are cracking down on child porn. Good for them - that's effective government at work.

I personally adore British culture, because in spite of all the wrongheaded imperialism they'd been up to in the 100 years between 1800 and 1900, they have their hearts in the right place. Most of the greatest theology of the Social Gospel era came from the United Kingdom and from Germany (for most of our history, we sent theologians to those countries to learn theology), and the Church of England remains one of the greatest beacons of civil Christianity and theological rationalism to be found anywhere in the world. And as far as morality goes, they're a lot better at it than we are - once they make a mistake, they don't repeat it.

And here we see Bush pushing his Pax Americana long after our own imperial era was supposed to be long over. And this is what we call 'morality'? I'd laugh if it weren't so sad.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

I did not find much of meaning in this last batch, but I did manage to find a few quotes (sort-of) worthy of response.

Socialism is not mere government ownership, a welfare state, or a repressive bureaucracy. Socialism is a new social and economic order in which workers and consumers control production and community residents control their neighborhoods, homes, and schools.

Christians have tried this and are labeled bigots, homophobes and xenophobes.

Is that so? Funny, most of the Christians I know readily support wealthy/capitalist oriented politics, and are the ones voting for social inequality.

Private land ownership is indeed going to be outlawed by these freedom" fighters." The collective will proclaim its power.

And your problem with this is...?

The Native Americans are my favorite example of a socialist society. In their culture, private ownership was a foreign concept. They lived in harmony with nature, taking only what they needed, and distributing that among their community. This system worked well for thousands of years. Then the Eurpeans came, instilled private ownership, and litterally shit on their precious parcels. Hence why there are no more Native Americans, or environment.

How about motivating people to invent the incredible things under a free market economy? What motivates socialist lemmings?

Obviously the economic structure grants plenty incentive, as the today's socialist societies are the most profitable nations on earth. Luxembourg's GPD is double America's. How do you explain that?

Business competition has literally bettered the world. Even in Europe.

Of course. Regulated business competition.

In America's case, business competition has destroyed society. American businesses aren’t even required to guarantee their employees health insurance. Consequently, thousands of honest white-collar middle class workers needlessly die each year thanks to the governments complete negligence of basic human needs.

In socialist nations, where insurance coverage is no less than 100%, such an atrocity is unheard of.

Revisionist history and redefining morality is the key to socialism's rise to create a new paradigm prompted by jealousy.

There you go again. "Redefining morality".

Kindly read my statistics, and never mention this fallacy again.

The uneducated and unmotivated cannot lead anyone for long.

Wrong again. Education is thrives in socialist countries.

Do you need to see the "before Chavez/after Chavez" education statistics again?

This is called political spin. Socialism legalizes drugs and sexual perversion and child-sex slavery ("age of consent," what's that?) and there is no dissent from anyone about it. That's a socialist society European style.

Drug use is lower in socialist nations than in America.
"Sexual Perversion" rates are lower in socialist nations than in America.
Prostitution numbers are lower in socialist nations than in America.

Facts.

Time to find a new argument.

Children are provided with the care, goods and services, and support that they need, and are protected from abuse.

Which hasn't happened yet in socialist countries.

I have shown this to be false. New argument please.

What children get is condom-morality.

Which, as the statistics show, works better than preaching solely abstinance. New argument please.

No stats are kept for abortions by pills and promiscuity that is seen as common acceptable behavior.

You mean, except for the stats I posted?

Like Lenin, Stalin and Mao. Socialisms grand historical heores.

The only three you will acknowledge.

The cleanup of the contaminated environment and the creation of a nuclear-free world are among the first tasks of a socialist society.

The first decent thing we come to.

Oh no, I'm sure you could find a way to twist this around to mean something completely opposite (and false), as you have succeeded in doing with every other quote.

Why should anyone believe any "stats" from the left, or the right?

Well, for one, my statistics are not actually comming from the left. They are comming from international census organizations, policy analysis, and the United Nations.

If you cannot trust my sources, you cannot trust anything.

We could battle url's all-day.

You seem to have a hard time of it. There is not much credible evidence out there speaking in favor of America.

Here's a story from a socialist country. With stats even.

Wow, you sure showed me.

Just one little problem. Britain is capitalist.

Assuming you have nothing else to present, I am officially finished with this debate. Perhaps I will go try and present my evidence to a more receptive crowd. Like the pile of bricks behind my shed.

[1John2_26]

Fair enough.

I do not trust your stats, don't believe them and the United Nations would be a good place to find that mistrust well-placed. I am a Christian. They sit silent while Christians are slaughtered worldwide. Utterly silent. How many UN members are Muslims or socialists?

There is nothing we can agree on unless Bible-believing Christians are the leadership of these civilizations these godless socialists want to build. They have been shown completely untrustworthy and super-violent. Genocidally so.

Historically, when Europe was run "by the church" most people in the past never read the Bible nor, even saw one. When they did, we have the modern world to see the results.

Trying to equate Marxism with anything even remotely compatible with Christ Jesus is absurd. As can be seen easily. Socialist countries turn godless as a matter of evolution. The blond countries would be a good place to see this.

No Christian can accompany a socialist along their wide path. As you can see from the Sociialist organizations themselves it cannot be seperated from abortion and sexual perversions as civil rights, ungodly taxation of decent people to fund the lives of the evil and unmotivated, to the point of communism which can never be hidden in socialist outcome.

Private land ownership is indeed going to be outlawed by these freedom" fighters." The collective will proclaim its power.

And your problem with this is...?

That is Lenin, Stalin and Mao. The three examples of socialism that socialsts want to hide. Yes I will use them everytime a socialist comes out of the darkness. Why are Christians so despised by socialists? Because they point out the evil hidden within the promises that appear only shortly until the powerful leaders take control of the mindless-godlesss followers.

I desire freedom and want others that desire freedom to attain it as well. It was interesting seeing communsim unable to be hidden from the facade known as socialsm in the statement I quoted from you.

Just like the abominations embraced as civil rights in the socialist world, always the answer: "so what's your point?" It's incredible to watch evil rising again in the rhetoric of promises to the poor.

"Give me liberty or give me death." You should look up the entire context of this statement. Americans will never except socialism. Not even the latin immigrants happy to sub-exist on welfare programs until they can acheive their own "capital" to own their own property.

[1John2_26]

MagusYanam,

1John2_26 wrote:
But not to have dreams of an exceptional life.

MagusYanam wrote:
Dreams of an exceptional life - pah! A Christian craves not these things.

But (a Christian) worships the Risen Christ and proclaims the Gospel to give an exceptional life to others. How odd you didn't see that. Christians do not desire to enslave all to a totalitarian godless society of high taxation and oppression to pay for everything.

You are a decent guy and I will stop debating you in this thread in front of an anti-Christian, but there is no compatibilty with "progressive" socialistic Christianity and real worship of Christ Jesus and the committment it takes when embracing that free choice. Giving in and allowing reprobates to lead the congregation is nowhere supported by any book of the New Testament.

For me to become a socialist in the reality of what they actually "are" is to deny Christ and the Gospel of repentance and a life commited to proclaiming the "good news" not just another version of news compatible with many others. I cannot make Christ one of many voices for the common collective to feel easy with their behaviors of vice be paid for by good people's paychecks.

From Jesus:

1"All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. 2They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. 3They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4I have told you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I warned you. I did not tell you this at first because I was with you.

There is nothing compatible with the socialist view of morality and that of the Gospels. No matter the "helping the poor" passages taken out of context to prove socialistic morality, if the poor are to be sold into godless behaviors supported by "progressive" ideology. No Christian CAn do that. Once you become a socialist, you are sold into the collective immorality it possesses and professes.

Back to John 16:

33"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

Socialism has no desire to follow Jesus. History has shown that well enough. The trouble coming is coming from "progressives" (socialists) that have no desire to give Christians any voice to oppose them. And definately do socialists want to "control the world."