Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

[cnorman18]

[ndf8th]

cnorman18 when I read you description on Judaism
I wish there existed some naturalistic version that
where totally unrelated to the ethnic heritage and culture
so that anybody could join such a faith.

Not for to steal it or to make a fake copy but to see it
as a basically human way to relate to all there is.

Hope it is okay to ask have you heard of such attempts
to create such a religion? I agree with much of what you say there.

[fwbbeliever]

Yes, that verse has been used in that way for quite a long time; we Jews do not see it in quite the same way. From the Jewish Study Bible: "In the Tanakh, faith does not mean believing in spite of the evidence It means trusting profoundly in another person, in this case the person God who has reiterated his promise." Note, too, that the trust was proven by Abraham's subsequent actions, not merely his assertions; in fact, Abraham makes no assertions at all in this passage.

This is the correct definition of faith. The difference I would have, of course, is I trust Jesus Christ, that he was the true Messiah for the Jews, and that he is coming again to set up the kingdom to fulfill all of the promises that have been given to the Jews in the Old Testament.

One more verse I have is this.
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

[Goat]

Yes, that verse has been used in that way for quite a long time; we Jews do not see it in quite the same way. From the Jewish Study Bible: "In the Tanakh, faith does not mean believing in spite of the evidence It means trusting profoundly in another person, in this case the person God who has reiterated his promise." Note, too, that the trust was proven by Abraham's subsequent actions, not merely his assertions; in fact, Abraham makes no assertions at all in this passage.

This is the correct definition of faith. The difference I would have, of course, is I trust Jesus Christ, that he was the true Messiah for the Jews, and that he is coming again to set up the kingdom to fulfill all of the promises that have been given to the Jews in the Old Testament.

One more verse I have is this.
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Aren't mistranslations so nice?? If you read the Hebrew, the word is not 'Pierced' It's "Stabbed"

[Dario]

Hello to everyone

Obviously Jesus is the Messiah, early rabbis believed that

Isaiah 53 is a perfect example, and it is not referring to the nation of Israel

This chapter is quite clear and it needn't a figurative or symbolic sense or something like that

In my opinion dear Jews, you can keep waiting your imaginary Messiah, but the true is that your Messiah will never come.


GREETINGS

[cnorman18]

Hello to everyone

Obviously Jesus is the Messiah, early rabbis believed that

Isaiah 53 is a perfect example, and it is not referring to the nation of Israel

This chapter is quite clear and it needn't a figurative or symbolic sense or something like that

In my opinion dear Jews, you can keep waiting your imaginary Messiah, but the true is that your Messiah will never come.

GREETINGS

And greetings to you; but your opinion will remain your opinion. Even on the most superficial level, Isaiah 53 could not refer to Jesus. V. 10 says that the servant will "see his offspring," and Jesus had no children. Remember, you yourself said that there is no need for a "symbolic" or "figurative" sense in this passage.

You will see a discussion of the chapter in the Wikipedia entry. As is often the case, this passage is used by Christians after being removed from its context. The Servant is explicitly said to be the people of Israel in Isaiah 41, for starters. There is much more.

Many Christians assume that the Messiah is a major theme of Judaism. It isn't. The Torah, the most authoritative and most sacred part of the Hebrew Bible, does not mention the concept (and it is to be remembered that the entire "Old Testament," as Christians call the Hebrew Bible, does not hold equal authority or importance in the Jewish Religion anyway; the Torah is the most important, the Prophets less so). Belief in and hope for the Messiah is no longer a particularly large part of the modern Jewish faith; the emphasis today is on the Messianic Age, a time of perfect peace, justice and faith toward which we ALL work ourselves, as opposed to merely waiting for a magical Messiah to rescue us. The Messiah was always taught to be an ordinary mortal man anyway, just as David, the prototype of the Messiah King, was an ordinary mortal man.

In any case, this is the wrong forum in which to pursue this debate. There is a similar thread, with the same title, on the Christianity & Apologetics subforum; feel free to address the issue there. he purpose of THIS subforum "is to discuss and debate Jewish topics and issues. This sub-forum assumes the ongoing validity of Judaism; anyone can post here, but it's not the place to discuss, for example, whether Christianity has supplanted Judaism or ought to."

[Jayhawker Soule]

Obviously Jesus is the Messiah, early rabbis believed that

Name three.

[Dario]

Hello to everyone

Obviously Jesus is the Messiah, early rabbis believed that

Isaiah 53 is a perfect example, and it is not referring to the nation of Israel

This chapter is quite clear and it needn't a figurative or symbolic sense or something like that

In my opinion dear Jews, you can keep waiting your imaginary Messiah, but the true is that your Messiah will never come.

GREETINGS

And greetings to you; but your opinion will remain your opinion. Even on the most superficial level, Isaiah 53 could not refer to Jesus. V. 10 says that the servant will "see his offspring," and Jesus had no children. Remember, you yourself said that there is no need for a "symbolic" or "figurative" sense in this passage.

You will see a discussion of the chapter in the Wikipedia entry. As is often the case, this passage is used by Christians after being removed from its context. The Servant is explicitly said to be the people of Israel in Isaiah 41, for starters. There is much more.

Many Christians assume that the Messiah is a major theme of Judaism. It isn't. The Torah, the most authoritative and most sacred part of the Hebrew Bible, does not mention the concept (and it is to be remembered that the entire "Old Testament," as Christians call the Hebrew Bible, does not hold equal authority or importance in the Jewish Religion anyway; the Torah is the most important, the Prophets less so). Belief in and hope for the Messiah is no longer a particularly large part of the modern Jewish faith; the emphasis today is on the Messianic Age, a time of perfect peace, justice and faith toward which we ALL work ourselves, as opposed to merely waiting for a magical Messiah to rescue us. The Messiah was always taught to be an ordinary mortal man anyway, just as David, the prototype of the Messiah King, was an ordinary mortal man.

In any case, this is the wrong forum in which to pursue this debate. There is a similar thread, with the same title, on the Christianity & Apologetics subforum; feel free to address the issue there. he purpose of THIS subforum "is to discuss and debate Jewish topics and issues. This sub-forum assumes the ongoing validity of Judaism; anyone can post here, but it's not the place to discuss, for example, whether Christianity has supplanted Judaism or ought to."

Hello again

Well, you said that in the v.10 has to be absolutely literally, but I meant in general,I mean, the text clearly speaks about one individual ,from Isaiah 52:13 until Isaiah 53:12, but you neither interpret this literally, you apply singular pronouns to a nation.

‘seed’ is sometimes used metaphorically in the Scriptures, and since it can sometimes refer simply to a future generation.

But after his resurrection we can claim that Jesus fulfilled the description "seeing seed"

Certainly,if you ever accept the NT, you have to accept Jesus as out Father in the
same way that YHWH ,God the Father

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is thirsty of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


Not only Israel or Jacob is the servant of YHWH but also the Messiah, through the Scriptures and its books we can find some characters like Nebuchadnezzar , and Cyrus as God's anointed (Isaiah 45:1) simply because they were the instruments of God's purpose.

In the same way there are 2 servants in Isaiah who have differences between themselves.

Israel, as a servant NEEDS redemption, the servant of Isaiah 53, REDEEMS, bearing sin and MAKING others righteous.

Hes is a REDEEMER.


__Israel__

Isa 44:21 Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for you are my servant: I have formed you; you are my servant: O Israel, you shall not be forgotten of me.
Isa 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, YOUR TRANSGRESSIONS, and, as a cloud,YOUR SINS: return unto me; for I HAVE REDEEMED YOU .


__The Messiah__


Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because HE HAD DONE NO VIOLENCE ,NEITHER WAS ANY DECEIT IN HIS MOUTH.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days, and the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Isa 53:11 He shall see the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall MY RIGHTEOUS SERVANT JUSTIFY MANY ; FOR HE SHALL BEAR THEIR INIQUITIES.

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he has poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; AND HE BORE THE SIN OF MANY , and made intercession for the transgressors.

If Israel was an obedient nation, they would not suffer punishment or suffering, they would receive blessings. They would be placed above the nations of the eart



Footnote= I do not know much about Judaism as I wish, but I hope to get better in the issue through these conversations.

GREETINGS

[cnorman18]

Footnote= I do not know much about Judaism as I wish, but I hope to get better in the issue through these conversations.

This isn't the way to do it. You've already been informed that this forum isn't the place for this debate.

I advise you to get a good book on the subject of Judaism, or go to the Jewish Virtual Library online, and learn a bit before you go into this. This subject, among Jews, is closed -- especially on this subforum.

Have you even read the rest of this thread? Isaiah 53 isn't going to solve the other problems Jews have with being supplanted by Christianity.

I mean no offense, but this really isn't the place.

[Dario]

Footnote= I do not know much about Judaism as I wish, but I hope to get better in the issue through these conversations.

This isn't the way to do it. You've already been informed that this forum isn't the place for this debate.

I advise you to get a good book on the subject of Judaism, or go to the Jewish Virtual Library online, and learn a bit before you go into this. This subject, among Jews, is closed -- especially on this subforum.

Have you even read the rest of this thread? Isaiah 53 isn't going to solve the other problems Jews have with being supplanted by Christianity.

I mean no offense, but this really isn't the place.

I am sorry if got angry,
Whether this is not a place to debate,( although this website is called "" DEBATING CHRISTIANITY AND RELIGION) what website to debate about Judaism would you recommend me?

GREETINGS

[cnorman18]

Footnote= I do not know much about Judaism as I wish, but I hope to get better in the issue through these conversations.

This isn't the way to do it. You've already been informed that this forum isn't the place for this debate.

I advise you to get a good book on the subject of Judaism, or go to the Jewish Virtual Library online, and learn a bit before you go into this. This subject, among Jews, is closed -- especially on this subforum.

Have you even read the rest of this thread? Isaiah 53 isn't going to solve the other problems Jews have with being supplanted by Christianity.

I mean no offense, but this really isn't the place.

I am sorry if got angry,
Whether this is not a place to debate,( although this website is called "" DEBATING CHRISTIANITY AND RELIGION) what website to debate about Judaism would you recommend me?

I am not "angry"; just a trifle annoyed that you don't appear to be listening. The truths of Judaism are not up for debate in this subforum. You can debate such ideas on other subforums here, on "Christianity and Apologetics," for instance, the primary subforum of this site; but not in this one. I thought I made that clear.

There are few Jews on this forum for you to debate with, and (though I can't speak for all) most of us seem to take this position: "Whether or not Jesus was the Jewish Messiah is a matter that can, and should, only be decided by Jews. That judgment was made 2,000 years ago, and has been reaffirmed by every generation since. He wasn't. End of debate."