Obama dispises liberty

[McCulloch]

Obama's election could be punishment for an evil nation.

Or a reward to a nation coming to its senses.

Only if you despise liberty and support socialism.

Does Obama despise liberty and support socialism? Is he one of those Godless communists?

[Board]

removing a lot of the filler so we can get this back to being to the point...

less time will be wasted if they had nothing to work on

How do you know that without the use of torture, our intelligence agencies would have nothing to work on?

No you have made your point and I will say I respect your sources. I guess I will disagree that waterboarding is torture and mental suffering (at least to me) should not be considered torture.

So you disagree with the accepted definition of torture... Water boarding is torture by all the sources provided. Mental suffering is torture according to all these sources. It sounds like you disagree with the concept of torture...

I'm sorry, you do not get to redefine the term to meet your personal opinion.

I did not say to treat them like swine you have misrepresented what I said. I said they have morals that are below swine. What do you call killing 3,000 innocent people for no reason? I would say a pig has better morals. I think the US goes out of it's way to treat people with respect. We are an exceptional country and I view us that way.

We are not an exceptional country. How many innocent people died because of our invasion of Iraq?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties ... casualties

The study also stated: "Our analysis of the evidence leads to the conclusion that between 10,800 and 15,100 Iraqis were killed in the war. Of these, between 3,200 and 4,300 were noncombatants – that is: civilians who did not take up arms."

Should we include Afghanistan in this analysis? How many innocent people do we have to kill to make up for the innocent people they killed?

I disagree with waterboarding being called torture.

And as I have shown, water boarding is torture. Your opinion is not a greater authority than all the evidence I have provided in this thread.

[Board]

Let's put the hairsplitting aside and say waterboarding is torture,

It is not splitting hairs, you just refuse to admit you are wrong....

I fully support how it was used on those three people,

You support the use of torture. Thank you for admitting to it. Is torture morally acceptable from the Christian world view?

and believe Bin Laden would still be alive had Bush not done that.

Opinion and speculation.

Killing a human being is worse than torturing one, and we do that all the time to achieve our objectives.

I agree, killing is worse that torture. We probably need to stop killing people without due cause...

How is killing Bin Laden OK but waterboarding a foreign national who isn't covered by the Geneva Convention bad?

Well, I am not a Christian so I personally do not see an issue with killing Osama bin Laden... I want to know how Christians can defend the use of torture and assassination?

BTW, I reject the idea that waterboarding doesn't work. Khalid Sheikh Muhammad sang like a canary after it.

http://swampland.time.com/2011/05/04/di ... bin-laden/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_She ... errogation

Forensic psychiatrist Michael Welner, M.D., an expert in false confessions, observed from the testimony transcript that his concerns about his family may have been far more influential in soliciting Mohammed’s cooperation than any earlier reported mistreatment.[87]

Or perhaps this:

One CIA official cautioned that "many of Mohammed's claims during interrogation were 'white noise' designed to send the U.S. on wild goose chases or to get him through the day's interrogation session". For example according to Mike Rogers, a former FBI agent and the top Republican on the terrorism panel of the House Intelligence Committee, he has admitted responsibility for the Bali nightclub bombing, but his involvement "could have been as small as arranging a safe house for travel. It could have been arranging finance." Mohammed also made the admission that he was "responsible for the 1993 World Trade Center Operation," which killed six and injured more than 1,000 when a bomb was detonated in an underground garage, Mohammed did not plan the attack, but he may have supported it. Michael Welner noted that by offering legitimate information to interrogators, Mohammed had secured the leverage to provide disinformation as well.[88]

Or this:

After Mohammed arrived at Guantánamo, a team of FBI and military interrogators tried to elicit from him the same confessions that the CIA had obtained about the 9/11 plot, but by using only legal means of interrogation. By 2008, the Bush Administration believed that this so-called Clean Team had compiled sufficient evidence to charge Mohammed and the others with capital murder.[90]

Sure torture gets people to talk but at the price of a mountain of bad information and sacrificing your morality... no thanks.

[East of Eden]

It is not splitting hairs, you just refuse to admit you are wrong....

Because I'm not. The whole question is a matter of opinion.

You support the use of torture. Thank you for admitting to it. Is torture morally acceptable from the Christian world view?

It can be. If another 9/11 or worse could be prevented with waterboarding, only a lunatic would oppose it.

Opinion and speculation.

As is the idea that we would have gotten Bin Laden anyway.

I agree, killing is worse that torture. We probably need to stop killing people without due cause...

Terrorists are due little due cause.

Well, I am not a Christian so I personally do not see an issue with killing Osama bin Laden... I want to know how Christians can defend the use of torture and assassination?

Our God wiped out most of the world due to sin, an asasination or two is no big deal.

Forensic psychiatrist Michael Welner, M.D., an expert in false confessions, observed from the testimony transcript that his concerns about his family may have been far more influential in soliciting Mohammed’s cooperation than any earlier reported mistreatment.[87]

Speculation.

Sure torture gets people to talk but at the price of a mountain of bad information and sacrificing your morality... no thanks.

Again, if we can kill people how is waterboarding immoral? The former CIA counter terror chief disagrees with you on its effectiveness. For some people, not even hindsight is 20/20.

[East of Eden]

We are not an exceptional country. How many innocent people died because of our invasion of Iraq?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties ... casualties

The study also stated: "Our analysis of the evidence leads to the conclusion that between 10,800 and 15,100 Iraqis were killed in the war. Of these, between 3,200 and 4,300 were noncombatants – that is: civilians who did not take up arms."

Should we include Afghanistan in this analysis? How many innocent people do we have to kill to make up for the innocent people they killed?

All wars kill innocents. By your reasoning we should have surrendered to Hitler since we killed many innocents in WWII. See Dresden. I suspect many of the 'civilians' killed in Iraq and Afhganistan were wearing a rag on their face and carrying an AK-47. They fact is, we go out of our way to protect innocents in war, often at the risk of US servicemen and women, unlike our enemy who use civilians as shields.

Your post is a perfect illustration that to the left, America is always wrong.

[Board]

All wars kill innocents. By your reasoning we should have surrendered to Hitler since we killed many innocents in WWII. See Dresden.

And again you fail miserably at analogies... Hitler was the aggressor and we were coming to the defense of several nations. In Iraq we were the aggressor invading under the false information that he had WMDs... These two wars should not be considered equal by any stretch of the imagination.

I suspect many of the 'civilians' killed in Iraq and Afhganistan were wearing a rag on their face and carrying an AK-47.

And I suspect your suspicions are unfounded and not valid for debate... but thanks for providing us with your opinion.

They fact is, we go out of our way to protect innocents in war, often at the risk of US servicemen and women, unlike our enemy who use civilians as shields.

I do not deny this fact. However, innocents still die and we are the aggressors in a war based on false information. How do you justify that?

Your post is a perfect illustration that to the left, America is always wrong.

Where did I say that? Seriously East of Eden, stop trying to put words in my mouth.

[East of Eden]

And again you fail miserably at analogies... Hitler was the aggressor and we were coming to the defense of several nations. In Iraq we were the aggressor invading under the false information that he had WMDs... These two wars should not be considered equal by any stretch of the imagination.

How was Afghanistan not complicit in 9/11?

I do not deny this fact. However, innocents still die and we are the aggressors in a war based on false information. How do you justify that?

I don't justify bad intel. Perhaps if the Democrats hadn't gutted US intel capabilities in the 70s it wouldn't have happened. Do you agree we, and the Iraqi people, are better off with Saddam gone? He killed more Muslims than anyone save the French in Algeria, and was deeply involved in international terror. There is even a link between our presence in Iraq and getting Bin Laden:

http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/Osam ... /id/394925

Where did I say that? Seriously East of Eden, stop trying to put words in my mouth.

That's my observation from reading your posts.

[Board]

Because I'm not. The whole question is a matter of opinion.

It most certainly is not. Water boarding is torture. Period. There is no matter of opinion. If you bothered to read any of the definitions I presented on what is or is not torture you would be able to grasp this concept.

It can be. If another 9/11 or worse could be prevented with waterboarding, only a lunatic would oppose it.

Please keep the personal comments to yourself.. they are getting old. Lunatic? really? are you going to debate this topic or just sling mud?

As is the idea that we would have gotten Bin Laden anyway.

So the ends justify the immoral means... is that the Christian perspective?

Terrorists are due little due cause.

All humans deserve due cause.

Our God wiped out most of the world due to sin, an asasination or two is no big deal.

Wow... really? First your God committing whole scale world wiping cannot be shown to be true. Second God is OK with assassination? Really? How ab Jesus? He OK with that?

Again, if we can kill people how is waterboarding immoral? The former CIA counter terror chief disagrees with you on its effectiveness. For some people, not even hindsight is 20/20.

NEWS FLASH - Killing is also immoral. Get it? Yes we know you like what the former CIA chief has to say and it has been presented here that several other authorities on the issue disagree with him. Got anything else?

[lastcallhall]

It most certainly is not. Water boarding is torture. Period. There is no matter of opinion. If you bothered to read any of the definitions I presented on what is or is not torture you would be able to grasp this concept.

actually it is an opinion, the person who wrote the encyclopedia could have a agenda that they were pushing. If you asked 100 people if waterboarding is torture I bet you would get many that don't feel the same way you do.

POLL: Should Waterboarding Interrogation Method Be Back on the Table?
by Fox News Insider Posted in: Poll, Usama Bin Laden Killed

A technique used under President George W. Bush, waterboarding is now making headlines as conflicting reports are being released about whether or not the method may have led to intel on Usama bin Laden’s whereabouts. So, we want your take on the enhanced interrogation technique of which Obama and his administration have been critical. Click “more� to take our poll about whether or not extreme interrogation tactics should be back on the table.



Thank you for voting!
Yes - these methods can be useful in leading to the arrest and demise of major threats to our nation. 95.85%
No - such methods are inhumane, and we shouldn't employ them. 3.87%
I'm not sure how I feel about such techniques. 0.28%

And here is one from CNN in 2009

Six in ten people questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Wednesday believe that some of the procedures, such as water boarding, were a form of torture, with 36 percent disagreeing.
But half the public approves of the Bush administration’s decision to use of those techniques during the questioning of suspected terrorists, with 50 percent in approval and 46 percent opposed.
“Roughly one in five Americans believe those techniques were torture but nonetheless approve of the decision to use those procedures against suspected terrorists,� says CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. “That goes a long way toward explaining why a majority don’t want to see former Bush officials investigated.�
Fifty-seven percent of those questioned don’t want Congress to investigate Bush officials who authorized those harsh interrogation procedures, with 42 percent calling for action by lawmakers. Fifty-five percent also don’t want a similar investigation by an independent panel.

So you can see that this is really a matter of opinion

All humans deserve due cause.

I agree but Bin Laden already admitted his guilt

NEWS FLASH - Killing is also immoral. Get it? Yes we know you like what the former CIA chief has to say and it has been presented here that several other authorities on the issue disagree with him. Got anything else?

Murder is immoral and against the 10 commandments but a justifiable killing is fine. I will use King David as an example, he was known as a man after God's own heart and he had killed thousands in battle. He was called a bloody man by God after he killed Uriah to cover up his sin. That is the difference.

[Board]

actually it is an opinion, the person who wrote the encyclopedia could have a agenda that they were pushing. If you asked 100 people if waterboarding is torture I bet you would get many that don't feel the same way you do.

Fox news opinion polls that legitimize the actions by the right are not an acceptable source... They also do not speak to water boarding as whether it is torture or not... your poll just shows that 95% of those who follow fox news agree that we should use torture. Congratulations on proving my point for me.

CNN is a better place to start than FOX, there you see 60% of people call water boarding torture. I would say this is on par with the literacy level of the US and the extreme right's denial leading them to select otherwise as we see in this post.

But regardless of those facts, opinion polls have nothing to do with the dictionary.

Water boarding induces a sensation of drowning (mental and arguably physical trauma) and it is used to extract information from detainees.

This is torture. There is no opinion here...

Is there a point of debating you guys if you refuse to acknowledge the English language?

Murder is immoral and against the 10 commandments but a justifiable killing is fine. I will use King David as an example, he was known as a man after God's own heart and he had killed thousands in battle. He was called a bloody man by God after he killed Uriah to cover up his sin. That is the difference.

Yes, I am well aware that the Myth's in the Bible tell you it is OK to kill in the name of God.

Yet why do you hide from this fact when the violence in Christianity is pointed out and you hide behind "Jesus was non-violent"? Is this only applicable when it is convenient?

[lastcallhall]

Water boarding induces a sensation of drowning (mental and arguably physical trauma) and it is used to extract information from detainees.

This is torture. There is no opinion here...

Is there a point of debating you guys if you refuse to acknowledge the English language?

I guess you discount all the millions of people than that feel it is not torture or if you want to call it torture find it acceptable because no physical harm comes to that person. We are not cutting off hands, feet, or a head. We do not rape women like many terrorists do, we dunk their head under the water to give them the feeling of drowning. To me that is not a bad thing.

Yes, I am well aware that the Myth's in the Bible tell you it is OK to kill in the name of God.

Yet why do you hide from this fact when the violence in Christianity is pointed out and you hide behind "Jesus was non-violent"? Is this only applicable when it is convenient?

Jesus was non-violent but he would not sit by and let sin go unpunished. I think putting a convicted murderer to death for his crimes is an acceptable punishment, maybe you do not. I am sorry you do not view America as exceptional, I view the US as the greatest country God ever let in the history of the world.