Illegal Immigration Pt. 2

[The Persnickety Platypus]

I just have to bring this back up.

A sequel to the former topic:



Is erecting a fence across the southern border a horrible policy? Yes or yes?

Is it reasonable to demand thousands of dollars in naturalization fees from migrants fleeing $80 work weeks? No or no?

[Cephus]

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying it's not a problem, I'm saying that the problem doesn't exist in a vacuum. To break the laws of a country, one has to be ignorant, uncaring or desperate. My guesses as far as the illegal immigrants are concerned are primarily the first and the third. These people aren't leading pretty lives - we should be finding out what it is that is driving them to break the law and see what we can do on this side of the border to solve that problem. Strike at the head of the serpent, so to speak.

But desperation doesn't excuse criminal behavior. The poor, hungry guy doesn't get a pass because he steals. Criminal behavior is criminal behavior regardless of why it is performed. Pro-illegal advocates are pointing fingers at everyone but at the individual law breakers themselves. No one is saying there isn't plenty of blame to go around, but so many want none of the blame for the illegal actions to fall on the people who are actually commiting them!

You'd be surprised. A lot of the first-generation kids up in Kalamazoo have parents who worked as migrant farmers and farm-hands in the Valley in California. And they got there and were employed legally. If you offer both deals to a Mexican family, in probably 9 cases out of 10 I doubt they'd go with the high-risk, illegal deal over the safer, legal one. Given my experience, that is; I could be quite wrong.

The majority of illegal immigrants have no interest in actually becoming American citizens and integrating into American society. They are Mexican citizens living abroad and that's all they'll ever be. I'd be the first one to welcome anyone who wanted to actually become an American and do it through legitimate, legal channels, I'm just not seeing a whole lot of them out there.

They're not marching to become Americans, you notice, they're marching not to be punished for their crimes.

[Cephus]

The Colorado Alliance for Immigration Reform estimates that the cost for providing welfare and assistance to illegal immigrants is over $15 billion a year.

That's an extreme lowball figure given by a pro-illegal liberal thinktank. More rational figures have suggested that once we give illegals amnesty and they are allowed, under the current proposal, to bring 10-15 MORE people from Mexico for permanent settlement in the U.S., that figures can rise to between $200-250 billion over the next 10 years.

The Center for American Progress estimates that the cost of deporting illegal immigrants would be $41 billion per year.

Also a ridiculous figure, which you'd know if you looked up how they arrived at it. They took the number of illegals actually deported in 1999 (445), divided it by the total cost of all the agents involved in immigration enforcement and came up with a cost of $17,603 per illegal. Of course, they purposely didn't count the thousands upon thousands of illegals that were captured and released, or any of the other things that these agents do, they assumed that each and every agent did nothing whatsoever during the year except capture these 445 illegals.

Come on, even you know there are lies, damn lies and crap that comes out of the Center for American Progress.

Mexicans make 11 times more money working illegally in the US than in Mexico - that's a powerful incentive to come back even if they are deported.

Of course they do. It's the same reason stealing is a powerful incentive to those who don't have things otherwise. But that doesn't change the fact that it's wrong and against the law.

Mexico's modern economy is quite young...

And still just as corrupt as it ever was.

I've seen estimates that it would take 30 years for Mexico's economy to stabilize to a point where illegal immigration is no longer beneficial enough to be worth the risk. If we were to help Mexico grow its economy at a faster rate, we could speed that up.

No, we can make it no longer worth the risk right now. We can eliminate the jobs, we can punish the lawbreakers and we can send the people who have no business whatsoever being in this country packing.

It's easier than trotting out ridiculous statistics.

[Suzanne]

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying it's not a problem, I'm saying that the problem doesn't exist in a vacuum. To break the laws of a country, one has to be ignorant, uncaring or desperate. My guesses as far as the illegal immigrants are concerned are primarily the first and the third. These people aren't leading pretty lives - we should be finding out what it is that is driving them to break the law and see what we can do on this side of the border to solve that problem. Strike at the head of the serpent, so to speak.

TO do something ON THIS SIDE I suppose you mean the AMERICAN SIDE. UNLESS you are IN MEXICO. and that does not sound that you are.. SO as for AMERICA??? WE CAN KEEP THE INVITATION TO ALL that are wanting to be FREE TO LIVE and PROSPER and BE FREE TO worship as THEY WANT TO WORSHIP and WORK TO HAVE PEACE, LIFE , LIBERTY,AND TO PAY THEIR SHARE OF the TAXES. EVENTUALLY becoming a CITIZEN OR TO LEARN ENOUGH SO they can GO BACK and MAKE THEIR own COUNTRY AS FREE and PROSPEROUS AS WE ARE ahd have been ALL THESE YEARS. THERE HAS TO BE MORE CHECKPOINTS TO eleviate the LONG LONG LINES of TRAFFIC. BEFORE they can enter in to STAY and work they MUST HAVE A passport that gives them a CLEAR WAY through HAVING been AGREED UPON BY BOTH GOVERNMENTS TO ALLOW them TO COME A LEARN AND have an OPPORTUNITY TO become someone that can HELP BOTH BORDERS and BOTH PEOPLES for the BETTERMENT AF all THAT live so CLOSELY to each other.

AMERICA is a LAND OF IMMIGRINTS .. a LAND OF ALL COLORS ALL LANGUAGES. EVEN the NATIVE AMERICAN is an IMMIGRINT TO THIS LAND if you already know where we all come from In the beginning of Time.. On this EARTH.

But desperation doesn't excuse criminal behavior. The poor, hungry guy doesn't get a pass because he steals. Criminal behavior is criminal behavior regardless of why it is performed. Pro-illegal advocates are pointing fingers at everyone but at the individual law breakers themselves. No one is saying there isn't plenty of blame to go around, but so many want none of the blame for the illegal actions to fall on the people who are actually commiting them!

If the Blame should fall on anyone IT should be on those that KEEP their own people in their own land from having the OPPORTUNITY to PROSPER and have FREEDOMS and have respect for their RIGHT to have the right to prosper according to there working,, and not for the government but that the government works for the PEOPLE OF MEXICO!!!making things the best they can for all those they are working for after all the GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS live there TOO but they cannot for get who PAYS for their LIVING and working at what they do.IT is after all THOS THAT ARE THE FOUNDATION OF ANY LAND, COUNTRY, and GOVERNMENTS OFFICIALS. IT is the people THEY are working for . Tthat means them also. The PEOPLE MUST prosper for the Government Officials to prosper.. SUPPORTING EACH OTHER. with what they make available to have MONEY EARNED in the first place. CLOSING COMPANIES and HAVING DIHONEST PEOPLE THAT ROB THE PEOPLE BY GRAFT , THEFT and by any name it is still a LAW BREAKER and is doing a CRIME THAT DESERVES punishment and LOSS of their job.or at least paying back or both.

You'd be surprised. A lot of the first-generation kids up in Kalamazoo have parents who worked as migrant farmers and farm-hands in the Valley in California. And they got there and were employed legally. If you offer both deals to a Mexican family, in probably 9 cases out of 10 I doubt they'd go with the high-risk, illegal deal over the safer, legal one. Given my experience, that is; I could be quite wrong.

YOUR RIGHT/// all that want to be fair and do the right and good thing will always choose going and doing what is LEGALLY RIGHT ACCORDING TO the RULES OF GOD and MAN.

The majority of illegal immigrants have no interest in actually becoming American citizens and integrating into American society. They are Mexican citizens living abroad and that's all they'll ever be. I'd be the first one to welcome anyone who wanted to actually become an American and do it through legitimate, legal channels, I'm just not seeing a whole lot of them out there.

They're not marching to become Americans, you notice, they're marching not to be punished for their crimes.

Some are marching in support of their friends and neighbors and brothers and sisters that want to continue benefiting themselves some as long as they can without ever paying a price for their ILLEGALITY, or GOING BACK TO THEIR COUNTRY OR GO TO SCHOOL TO LEARN BETTTER and TAKE THAT back to mexico and help build a better country for all mexico and mexicans. some are already lega and should not be sent back but offered their citizenship as soon as possible..then you have the illegals with Citizen born children. to work out for the best for all these concerned in the family.
In any case it is not going to be easy solution given the truth that AMERICA must ALWAYS WELCOME people TO HER LAND AND FREEDOM OFFERED TO THEM IF THEY WANT IT. this is WHAT IS AMERICA CHARITABLE, LOVERS OF ALL PEOPLES AND COMPASSION FOR THOSE THAT HAVE LESS and are NOT GIVEN THE FREEDOMS THEY DESERVE UNDER GOD ALMIGHTY. that is GOD OF ALL ... THAT LOVE HIM...........

Which reminds me DO YOU LOVE your GOD LORD AND SAVIOR TODAY GIVING HIM PRAISE AND GLORY AND ALL YOUR WORSHIP AND THANKS???????? FOR WHAT HE HAS DONE FOR YOU???????

[The Persnickety Platypus]

So now patriotism is a naturalization requirement.

When hasn't it been? The hyphen is there for a reason. Italian-American. Irish-American. Cuban-American.

[/quote]

Yes, actually, patriotism *IS* a naturalization requirement. Look it up. If you want to take part in what America can do for you, you need to actually want to be an American. Sorry that's so hard for you to comprehend.

If you fellows don't mind, I'd like to diverge from this fantasy nation you must be speaking of, and focus more on actual American law.

Patriotism: Love and devotion to one's country

No where in any American lawbook will you find the cited definition expressed as a citizenship requirement. No single US naturalization requirement denotes that one must express love and devotion to America exceeding that of his/her former national loyalties. You pay your fees, take the tests, and be on your way.

Now, I know a lot of you would *like* for patriotism to be required. It must be terrifying to know that there are people within our borders who have divided loyalties, don’t bow down and worship the flag, and (*gasp*) act a little differently than the rest of us.

I realize that the right way is horrifying terminolgy to a liberal, but not to normal, decent, average Americans.

i.e, those with shamelessly overflowing checkbooks. The only real “citizens” as far as a Conservative is concerned.

Funny, there does not seem to be a sudden influx of illegal white collar Canadians. I suppose they just "want to be Americans"? Their highly expendable money and time have nothing to do with it?

Maybe it's the fact that the Canadian government isn't marching their poor across the border? Or didn't you think about that?

Or (hello?) perhaps it is because the Canadian immigrants are not dirt poor like their Mexican counterparts, and can actually *afford* to fork over thousands in naturalization fees?

You continue to refuse to debate my actual plan. Why is this?

I'm not in favor of naturalizing all workers upon entrance because, as Cephus pointed out, many of them do not want to become United States citizens.

Or is it that they don’t want to pay thousands of dollars in needless fees?

Remember the thousands of American flags brandished in the recent immigrant rallies? They are coming here and making grave economic strides impossible to achieve in their home country. You’ve got to be crazy if you think they don’t feel some sort of gratitude to America.
Don’t think they want to be citizens? Offer them minimum wage, and see if they turn it down. You may be in for a surprise.

Illegal immigrants come here to fulfil their dreams and create a better life for themselves. What could be more American than that?

But desperation doesn't excuse criminal behavior. The poor, hungry guy doesn't get a pass because he steals. Criminal behavior is criminal behavior regardless of why it is performed. Pro-illegal advocates are pointing fingers at everyone but at the individual law breakers themselves.

If you were dying on the street, you might steal to sustain yourself. If you lived in Mexico with a large family to feed and no job, you would come to America. Don’t pretend you wouldn’t.

The best deterrence to criminal behavior is to quell the conditions that lead one to commit crime- something the failing American justice system still fails to recognize. Give the poor man opportunities, and if necessary, welfare, and he won’t need to steal.

Incarcerating the illegal offenders and building a fence across the border helps no one. Your still going to have millions of desperate people on the other side who still need food. They will find another venue across, just as you would in the same situation.

The majority of illegal immigrants have no interest in actually becoming American citizens and integrating into American society. They are Mexican citizens living abroad and that's all they'll ever be.

That’s what we said of the Irish and Italians during the last immigration flood. Guess what, they kept coming, and the world has yet to implode.

It’s the same old irrational xenophobia. You don’t just want the Mexicans to go through with citizenship “the right way”. You want them to abandon their culture, change their ways, alter their skin color, and blend in with the rest of us.

Cultural diversity. The conservative’s worst nightmare. Go ahead, keep telling me there is no racism at the bottom of this issue. I see through the conservative agenda. It’s the same shit they used to justify Jim Crow.

http://www.angelfire.com/rebellion2/nab ... icans.html
http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/mexican/66.html
http://sarvas.tk/mexicans.html



I’m tired of people pussyfooting around this issue. I want someone to pit an actual argument against my plan. Just one.

(Though, once again, I will have questionable computer access over the next week).

[Cephus]

It’s the same old irrational xenophobia. You don’t just want the Mexicans to go through with citizenship “the right way”. You want them to abandon their culture, change their ways, alter their skin color, and blend in with the rest of us.

You keep on telling yourself the tired old liberal lie. The fact is that you'd be hard pressed to find any other country but the U.S. that goes to the same trouble to print all it's forms in 500 different languages, provide translators for free to anyone who shows up, etc. I guess that makes every country out there xenophobic in your view. To me, that's just common sense. We have a national language which happens to be English. Anyone who wants to live in the United States and especially anyone who wants to become a permanent citizen, should be required to have a functional understanding of it. That's how it works worldwide, that's how it should work here. That's not racist, that's REALITY!

Of course, liberals don't have much of a grip on reality so I'm not surprised they can't comprehend the simple facts.

[sue]

We have a national language which happens to be English.

Actually, we don't have a national language.

Anyone who wants to live in the United States and especially anyone who wants to become a permanent citizen, should be required to have a functional understanding of it.

It could be problematic to have one or more large insular enclaves of people who don't speak English at all. See Quebec's seperatism issue. But small ethnic communities are a tradition in the US.

Of course, liberals don't have much of a grip on reality so I'm not surprised they can't comprehend the simple facts.

Too bad a democrat had to correct you on a fact, and make your point for you.

[Jose]

Anyone who wants to live in the United States and especially anyone who wants to become a permanent citizen, should be required to have a functional understanding of it.

And if they don't, send 'em back. Hey, if they starve, that's their problem. They're the ones who didn't eat, not me. It really wouldn't be The American Way to give 'em a job at lousy wages, and give 'em a chance to learn the language in what could be their first actual "school." Hey, if they were worth anything, they'd have been born rich.

That's how it works worldwide, that's how it should work here.

Another thing that works worldwide, with the exception of places that are too poor to achieve it, is everyone speaks English. We're just about the only "developed" nation that expects everyone who comes here to use our language. Every other country I've been in, they've spoken to me in English. I've tried to limp along with what I can manage of their language, but I must say, it failed me in Shanghai.

You sound rather like a guy who wrote into our local paper a while back, saying that we need to pass a law making English the national language, because "If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for the rest of us."

[MagusYanam]

You keep on telling yourself the tired old liberal lie. The fact is that you'd be hard pressed to find any other country but the U.S. that goes to the same trouble to print all it's forms in 500 different languages, provide translators for free to anyone who shows up, etc.

Um, look at the Constitution of Finland. Or Switzerland. Both are printed in more than one language (in Switzerland's case, three).

And then there's India, which provides free public services in at least twelve languages and is larger than the United States, yet still manages to maintain a (relatively) stable democracy. And then there's China, whose official language is Mandarin but which still provides free public services in Cantonese, Min Nan, Tibetan, Mongolian, Uighur, Kazakh and at least ten other languages.

Looks like you'd better start checking your own facts, Cephus.

We have a national language which happens to be English.

Actually, we don't have a national language.

What sue said. What's more, I thought that was one of the planks in the platform of the Republican Party (making English the official language of the United States, I mean). I don't see anything wrong with having an official language, so long as some form of free and easily-accessible education is provided for those who don't already know it. (Currently, there is none to my knowledge, but then I already speak and write English.)

I've tried to limp along with what I can manage of their language, but I must say, it failed me in Shanghai.

你不说吴方言吗？你放心，我也一定不会说得上海人会懂我说话。

I actually think it's a shame we don't offer the same courtesy to people who speak different languages than we do as the Chinese offer us. Or the Germans. Or the Mexicans, for that matter.

You sound rather like a guy who wrote into our local paper a while back, saying that we need to pass a law making English the national language, because "If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for the rest of us."

Really? Aw, dang. So much for my grand hopes of instating Aramaic as the official language of the United States.