The American Dream

[fewwillfindit]

Today, I heard a political commentator say that Martin Luther King Jr's vision of the American dream was, "the same opportunity for all," and contrasted that with the modern progressive vision of, "the same outcome for all."

Questions for debate:

1. Is this an accurate representation of progressive philosophy?
2. Which is best for America?
3. Does the Bible promote or endorse either of these visions?

[Abraxas]

The Bible and Jesus were very much for giving to the poor and I find it remarkably hard to believe that were Jesus real he would favor a system that denied the poor as much care as the society could afford to give them. Had I posted longer versions of each of those passages, I also would have noted they were not afraid to invoke divine wrath and eternal torment upon those who did not provide to the poor, and it doesn't get much more coersive than that.

This explains why religious Americans give more to charity than non-religious ones.

Only if you count tithing or overtly religious causes (e.g. missions), which I don't.

These instructions from Jesus were given to free people, not to governing bodies.

Free people? He threatened eternal death and torment to the noncompliant and eternal life and love for those who did what he said. That is not a free choice. That isn't even as free of a choice as "do this or die". Eternal torment is the absolute ultimate in coercive means.

Jesus didn't say, "Be faithful in your payment of taxes to Caesar to that Caesar can care for the sick."

And Caesar wasn't going to implement a single payer system either so your point is moot.

He always addressed the people, because it was the responsibility of individuals to act out of care and concern for others, not the responsibility of an impersonal government body. We will be judged individually.

Yes, and the most effective way to raise the standard of living for the poor would be to impelement expansive systems like welfare and universal health care. Refusal to work towards that as an individual, or deliberately taking action to stop it, doesn't strike me as very Christlike.

If liberals were really concerned about the poor, instead of throwing money we don't have at the problem they'd address the breakdown of the family. William Galston, once an assistant to President Clinton, said, "To avoid poverty, do three things: finish high school, marry before having a child, and produce the child after you are 20 years old. Only 8% of people who do all three will be poor; of those who fail to do them, 79% will be poor."

They do indeed statistically correlate, however, I think you have the cart before the horse as to cause and effect.

When two scholars studied data from the National Longitudinal Study of Youth, they found that, after holding income constant, young people in fatherless families were twice as likely to be in jail as were those in two-parent families. And their lives did not imporve if their mother had acquired a stepfather. Fill-in dads do not improve things any more than do bigger government checks.

Emphasis mine. You know this how, exactly? Seeing as the war on poverty was abandoned a while ago in this country, I don't think you are in a position to speak on that point with any authority.

Mat 19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.�

In other words those who do not unload their worldly possessions do not get into heaven.

Mat 19:27 immediately following this says, ""With man this impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God." Abraham and Solomon were the Bill Gates of their day, and the NT speaks of wealthy Christians aiding the Apostles.

Yes, that was also Old Testament. Jesus gave a different message on wealth. How does Jesus say it is possible for a rich man to get into heaven? He tells us just before this.

Matthew 19: 21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.�

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.�

I've also heard an interpretation that talks about a small ancient gate called the 'eye of the needle', that was meant for protection and was large enough for a man to bend over and pass, but not large enough for a man on horseback. In other words, it would have been possible, but difficult, for a camel to go through such a gate.

Uh, no. The only way to get a camel through the gate would be to chop it up or for it to be extremely young. That a man, on average for the region maybe five feet in height, to have to bend over makes it impossible for a camel, which stands on average over seven feet at the hump and does not have a waist it can bend to lower itself, to pass.

Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.�

Again, give to the poor or go to hell. Do you notice a pattern forming here?

Salvation isn't earned by works, but a truly saved person will demonstrate his salvation by choosing to follow Christ's teachings. Which again, is probably why Christians give more to charity.

Not what it says.

[Choir Loft]

Again, give to the poor or go to hell. Do you notice a pattern forming here?

[/quote]

There is absolutely no truth to this statement. In fact, there is NO MENTION of tithing in the New Testament AT ALL.

One is encouraged to give out of the abundance of the generosity of the heart and to give gladly. It is better to not give at all if it is done with some sense of obligation.

If we wish to go the way of legalism and to follow the pattern of 10% giving stated in the Old Testament, then one must also give 10% interest on top of any missed regular donations. I heard a preacher state this once and he had scripture to back it up.

There is also the precedent in the Old Testament of priests asking the people TO STOP GIVING, since they calculated they had enough. Betcha won't hear that preached or practiced in the modern church.

As to whether private giving of church members exceeds that of non-church members, it should be remembered TO WHOM the gifts are given. Let us all remember in these days of governmental cut backs that the chief way for the unfortunate to benefit in hard times is by PRIVATE donation.

When your life is hard it doesn't matter where the money, or the food or the clothing comes from.

[Abraxas]

Again, give to the poor or go to hell. Do you notice a pattern forming here

There is absolutely no truth to this statement. In fact, there is NO MENTION of tithing in the New Testament AT ALL.

One is encouraged to give out of the abundance of the generosity of the heart and to give gladly. It is better to not give at all if it is done with some sense of obligation.

If we wish to go the way of legalism and to follow the pattern of 10% giving stated in the Old Testament, then one must also give 10% interest on top of any missed regular donations. I heard a preacher state this once and he had scripture to back it up.

There is also the precedent in the Old Testament of priests asking the people TO STOP GIVING, since they calculated they had enough. Betcha won't hear that preached or practiced in the modern church.

As to whether private giving of church members exceeds that of non-church members, it should be remembered TO WHOM the gifts are given. Let us all remember in these days of governmental cut backs that the chief way for the unfortunate to benefit in hard times is by PRIVATE donation.

When your life is hard it doesn't matter where the money, or the food or the clothing comes from.

Where did I say anything about tithing? I said the Bible frequently invokes divine force against those who do not give to the poor, a statement that is absolutely true and I have cited it throughout the thread.

Matthew 19: 21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.�

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.�

---

Matthew 25: 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.�

[Choir Loft]

Where did I say anything about tithing? I said the Bible frequently invokes divine force against those who do not give to the poor, a statement that is absolutely true and I have cited it throughout the thread.

Matthew 19: 21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.�

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.�

---

Matthew 25: 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.�

It's all about rules !

Jesus had problems with the wealthy, with the socially well placed and with the religious leaders of His day. The well heeled established rules to justify themselves in the eyes of society and to control the masses. (Sound familiar?) Jesus came along and used those very rules against them in their feeble and hypocritical attempt to build their own righteousness.

They used rules to justify themselves and in effect Jesus said that those very rules would be their undoing.

The prophet Isaiah said that "no man is righteous, not even one". Does a contribution to the temple or the church subvert that principle? It does not. The nastiest man alive cannot justify himself before God simply by writing a big check. We see this in our own era. Sooner or later, though, the truth comes out and all the prizes awarded by the wicked man come to nothing.

Even in the eyes of man, a contribution made by a crook isn't sufficient to qualify him as a pillar of society. People may take his money and snicker when he isn't looking, but nobody is really fooled by it. How much more does this apply with God who sees the heart of a man?

A man is saved by grace and that not of himself lest any man should boast. It is a gift of God.

No man can bribe his way into heaven.
Final judgment has nothing at all to do with deeds.
Salvation allows a man to reap rewards, but is not conditional upon them.

Separation from God is the same. A man is not evicted from the presence of the Most High simply because he was thrifty or miserly. Those things are contributing factors to be sure. They are symptoms of the disease of sin and rebellion against God.

Nobody ever died of a symptom. Lots died of what was going on beneath their skin. It is the same with divine judgment.

God judges the heart, not the wallet.