Hello everyone!
Supposing, as is required on this subforum, that the Bible is indeed the word of God:
1. Is it reasonable to infer from scripture that there is a place of punishment after death?
a) If so, is it reasonable to infer from scripture that this is a place of everlasting punishment?
b) If so, what can we infer from scripture concerning the nature of the people condemned to this place of punishment?
c) If not, why is it that millions of Christians, including theologians past and present, believe that there is such a place based on their understanding of scripture? Where have these views come from?
I consider that this could be a very interesting thread if people participate and share their views on Hell, because Christians appear to be very divided on the questions of the existence and nature of such a place. It would be educative to explore where the different views stem from, and which of them can best be defended scripturally.
Thank you!
-Woland
Hell revisited
Moderator: Moderators
Post #63
See it how you see it. The parable is surrounded by parables.
I for one see hell as a big lie. Why would God create a place where people he never called cursing his name for ever and ever and God was helpless to do a thing about it.
My God is not helpless in anything He does. He is the alpha and the omega and all the Greek letters in between.
I for one see hell as a big lie. Why would God create a place where people he never called cursing his name for ever and ever and God was helpless to do a thing about it.
My God is not helpless in anything He does. He is the alpha and the omega and all the Greek letters in between.
Shermana wrote:If it was a parable it would be introduced as a parable like all the others without exception.
Post #64
parable surrounded by parables eh? reminds of how a single lie is always surrounded by many other lies supporting it,no lie can stand on its own it has to be protected by other lies. and when you keep saying a lie it starts to sound like the truth.
Post #65
1 Corinthians 2:14 (Amp) 14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.
Why would God burn up a Baby Goat?
Post #66Matt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divided his sheep from the goats:
A sheep is a mature believe, a sheep is a very loyal to His master and eats only the best of the spiritual grasses. As a boy I notice the farmer would give the sheep the second and third cuttings of grass; full of leaves and substance. Now a cow would eat the first cutting the lesser of the hay crop, made up of stems and little leaf compared to the earlier cuttings.
Of course a goat will eat any carnal garbage as long as it is in front of his nose.
Now I want to go to Matt 25:32 and I note; many are assuming a goat is a non believer, all it is your assumption, look at the Greek; I see a goat as an immature believer (baby goat); who are separated because of their spiritual immaturity.
Many are mature in their little religious box; but are immature spiritually; they have that immature goat nature. What garbage have you been eating to believe that Jesus is a terriorist.
Sheep Separated from Goats
Where on the other hand a goat or the Greek word (eriphos or kid; baby goat) So I see it as God separating his Sheep mature from His immature kids; spiritually speaking)
NT:2056
1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.
If you were a Jew in Jesus day there would be no problem with this parable, you see a Jew knows a goat and a sheep are clean animals.
PIG
Now if you the verses were referred to a pig or unclean animal I would agree with the traditional teaching. A pig would be a great example of the unjust/heathen; but a goat was used all though out the OT as a sacrificial animal’ so how can it be the unjust? (scrape goat); and why would God burn up a baby goat in everlasting fire; what did the baby goat do?
Actually nothing; the unqualified and unjust and bias translators obvious made a grave error in the word everlasting and should of translated it ages (NT:166 Aionios). The word means ages; limit duration. The has happen a number of times in scripture and can be easily proven by the context of the verse.
Unless of cource you baby goats want to burn forever and ever.
But according to these bias translators God is going to send a baby goat to everlasting fire.
Matt 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angel (messengers)
So many of God’s people are baby goats and all they eat is garbage; in other words damnable heresies or heresies of damnation/condemnations/ all those heresies that condemn people to torture
A sheep is a mature believe, a sheep is a very loyal to His master and eats only the best of the spiritual grasses. As a boy I notice the farmer would give the sheep the second and third cuttings of grass; full of leaves and substance. Now a cow would eat the first cutting the lesser of the hay crop, made up of stems and little leaf compared to the earlier cuttings.
Of course a goat will eat any carnal garbage as long as it is in front of his nose.
Now I want to go to Matt 25:32 and I note; many are assuming a goat is a non believer, all it is your assumption, look at the Greek; I see a goat as an immature believer (baby goat); who are separated because of their spiritual immaturity.
Many are mature in their little religious box; but are immature spiritually; they have that immature goat nature. What garbage have you been eating to believe that Jesus is a terriorist.
Sheep Separated from Goats
Where on the other hand a goat or the Greek word (eriphos or kid; baby goat) So I see it as God separating his Sheep mature from His immature kids; spiritually speaking)
NT:2056
1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.
If you were a Jew in Jesus day there would be no problem with this parable, you see a Jew knows a goat and a sheep are clean animals.
PIG
Now if you the verses were referred to a pig or unclean animal I would agree with the traditional teaching. A pig would be a great example of the unjust/heathen; but a goat was used all though out the OT as a sacrificial animal’ so how can it be the unjust? (scrape goat); and why would God burn up a baby goat in everlasting fire; what did the baby goat do?
Actually nothing; the unqualified and unjust and bias translators obvious made a grave error in the word everlasting and should of translated it ages (NT:166 Aionios). The word means ages; limit duration. The has happen a number of times in scripture and can be easily proven by the context of the verse.
Unless of cource you baby goats want to burn forever and ever.
But according to these bias translators God is going to send a baby goat to everlasting fire.
Matt 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angel (messengers)
So many of God’s people are baby goats and all they eat is garbage; in other words damnable heresies or heresies of damnation/condemnations/ all those heresies that condemn people to torture
Post #67
Benoni wrote:I for one see hell as a big lie. Why would God create a place where people he never called cursing his name for ever and ever and God was helpless to do a thing about it.
My God is not helpless in anything He does. He is the alpha and the omega and all the Greek letters in between.
Your concern is somewhat similar to what C.S. Lewis would call “the problem of pain� (I'm referring to the idea, not the book, which is why I didn't underline it or cap it.) God is indeed not helpless, but he has his own reasons for what he does, those of which I think are impossible for us to ever comprehend. With that said, it is fortunate that Paul felt inclined to clarify this: the fact that every human is held accountable for the fate they choose.
“The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.� (Romans 1:18-20)
And this from a parable, but it may well be the moral of it.
“For many are invited, but few are chosen.� (Matthew 22:14)
God wants none of his creation to perish, but if that is what they choose, he will allow it.
“But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.� (2 Peter 3:8,9)
And of course, John 3:16.
Again, like you said, He is not helpless, He is just allowing us free will. Love and worship are only true when done out of free will, and since that is what he seeks of us, he allows us to choose, so that we can show true love.
Although I agree with the fact that hell is not a literal lake of fire, I think it is still the most unimaginable suffering, more than we have ever experienced.
“The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.� (Matthew 3:10)
Those that do not follow God and do his will are “removed from the picture,� so to speak. This does not mean they literally are burned eternally for not producing spiritual fruit, but they will suffer from their fate nonetheless. Fire does not have to be literal torture, it is a representation of the Lord's divine judgment and wrath. Punishment does not imply torment.
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matthew 25:46)
That last one is the end of a parable, but I don't think that discounts it. Honestly, I don't see why Jesus would fabricate all these descriptions of hell, such as saying it is eternal, just for his parables. I mean, it would be misleading. The heaven in his parables is still heaven, so why can't the hell be? Food for thought.
"What is hell? I maintain that it is the suffering of being unable to love." states Father Zossima of Fyodor Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamazov. I favor this description. I am led to believe that our souls are indeed immortal, and that in hell, it is in separation from God, never able to love, worship, or feel the joys we feel and will feel in Heaven.
Post #68
That wouldn't be much of a punishment for unbelievers, who don't love or worship God anyway.LegionX wrote:[
"What is hell? I maintain that it is the suffering of being unable to love." states Father Zossima of Fyodor Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamazov. I favor this description. I am led to believe that our souls are indeed immortal, and that in hell, it is in separation from God, never able to love, worship, or feel the joys we feel and will feel in Heaven.
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Post #69
Welcome LegionX,
If our "souls" are immortal, how can they perish as the Bible states?LegionX wrote:I am led to believe that our souls are indeed immortal, and that in hell, it is in separation from God, never able to love, worship, or feel the joys we feel and will feel in Heaven.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
If we are immortal as you believe, perishing is never one of our choices!LegionX wrote:God wants none of his creation to perish, but if that is what they choose, he will allow it.
Can you explain further?http://www.thefreedictionary.com/immortal wrote:im·mor·tal: 1. Not subject to death.
Post #70
My understanding, gleaned from long years of studying Bible and commentary, is as follows:
After the Fall, God banished Adam and Eve from the Garden so they would not have access to the Tree of Life, so that humans would not be able to live forever (now that they had the knowledge of good and evil) and put an angel there, brandishin a sword to bar access to the tree .
In other words, I was taught, they died SPIRITUALLY. They were NOT immortal.
All humans were spiritually dead from that point. (The punishment for sin is death)With the coming of Jesus, and his sacrifice to pay the penalty for sin, those who chose to follow him became 'born again', and became ALIVE in God. In other words, they became immortal. They had eternal life from that point on.
This theory of Biblical interpretation does fit the concept of the punishment for sin being annihilation rather than eternal torture.
However it does conflict with the concept of eternal punishment, because if one was annihilated, the punishment would be over.
If it is called 'everlasting' punishment, that could make sense, because the person is dead forever.
However the punishment of simply being non existent forever doesn't seem to fit with the warnings of God, Jesus, the prophets and the writers of the epistles, of a HORRIFIC punishment for not believing.
Unless those warnings of horrific punishment refer to the horrors of the Great Tribulation.
The annihilation option doesn't seem to fit with the 'wicked' weeping and wailing and gnashing their teeth in the outer darkness, either.
As you can see, the Bible doesn't make clear what the punishment is, eternal torture, or everlasting annhilation.
After the Fall, God banished Adam and Eve from the Garden so they would not have access to the Tree of Life, so that humans would not be able to live forever (now that they had the knowledge of good and evil) and put an angel there, brandishin a sword to bar access to the tree .
In other words, I was taught, they died SPIRITUALLY. They were NOT immortal.
All humans were spiritually dead from that point. (The punishment for sin is death)With the coming of Jesus, and his sacrifice to pay the penalty for sin, those who chose to follow him became 'born again', and became ALIVE in God. In other words, they became immortal. They had eternal life from that point on.
This theory of Biblical interpretation does fit the concept of the punishment for sin being annihilation rather than eternal torture.
However it does conflict with the concept of eternal punishment, because if one was annihilated, the punishment would be over.
If it is called 'everlasting' punishment, that could make sense, because the person is dead forever.
However the punishment of simply being non existent forever doesn't seem to fit with the warnings of God, Jesus, the prophets and the writers of the epistles, of a HORRIFIC punishment for not believing.
Unless those warnings of horrific punishment refer to the horrors of the Great Tribulation.
The annihilation option doesn't seem to fit with the 'wicked' weeping and wailing and gnashing their teeth in the outer darkness, either.
As you can see, the Bible doesn't make clear what the punishment is, eternal torture, or everlasting annhilation.
