This Generation Will Not Pass Away:

[Overcomer]

Jesus talks about the destruction of the temple and signs of the end times in Matt. 24:1-35:

1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?� he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.�

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,� they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?�

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days


“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Verse 34 has been the subject of many a debate. My questions are as follows:

What did Jesus mean when he said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened?" Who is "this generation"?

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 565 by Checkpoint]

If so, he would have said"that generation".

Why?

Jesus was answering a question that the disciples asked in verse 3.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Jesus is describing to the disciples when these events would happen. The context of the entire chapter is in the future tense. Jesus was not even speaking of the disciples He was speaking of when end would come.

[marco]

God was not defeated in AD70. It was in His will for the Roman empire to exist and be as large as it was and to exist as long as it did. The Roman empire was predicted by Daniel when God gave Nebuchadnezzar the dream about the statue made of gold, silver, and bronze and clay.

This was not a defeat but a fulfillment of other prophecy.

I do not believe in astrology or zodiacal signs, nor magical predictions.

The position you hold is unassailable because you accept that whatever happens, good or bad, is part of a divine plan. Rome responded to a political upheaval and somehow, into this very human situation, you bring God.

Rome acted under Jupiter. The Jews honoured Yahweh. Rome won, ergo Jupiter triumphed over Yahweh. But you would claim that, in defeat, Yahweh was triumphant.
It is such a pity nobody at the time told Titus that he won simply because the Jewish God allowed him to.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 565 by Checkpoint]

If so, he would have said"that generation".

Why?

Jesus was answering a question that the disciples asked in verse 3.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Jesus is describing to the disciples when these events would happen. The context of the entire chapter is in the future tense. Jesus was not even speaking of the disciples He was speaking of when end would come.

Good contextual answer, but not for what he said in verse 34.

This verse has a wider context, one that begins at 22:12, where he divides people into two categories, those chosen and those not chosen.

He then then tangles with the religious leaders, and follows that up with his denunciation of them and description of their behavior, their parentage, and their destiny.

He calls them by name as well: "this generation".

He then bewails the fate of the Jerusalem that is the inevitable result, thus sparking his temple comments and the disciple's questions.

So, that is why!

Grace and peace to you.

[marco]

You are comprehending correctly what Jesus was saying. Now just expand your time frame by about 2000 years and you will be right on the money.

Thank you for your patient instruction. I hope, in using chestnut leaves instead of fig leaves, I did not detract from the profundity of Christ's beautiful prediction. I learn, then, that the best way to prophesy is to make your material vague: that way truth will surely come out.

It would have been silly of him to say that in 2345 years from now, in midwinter when a president called Peter is performing in a New Land called America, you will see the following signs. That would make things too easy. Wars and rumours of wars? - ah, yes, the Crimean War, the 30 Years War, the Gulf War, the Opium Wars, the Vietnam War, World War 1, the Napoleonic....tsk tsk..... the joys of prediction!

[Eloi]

In my post #516 I said:

The most basic meaning content of the demonstrative "this" lies in the proximity of the referent. This proximity can refer to a referent in thousands of ways, such as someone/something not physically or temporarily close but that the listener perceives its proximity in some way.

Many biblical expressions, even if they are said in an specific context, can have extra-contextual meanings, such as prophecies, which have a relatively immediate fulfillment (in almost all cases) and a greater fulfillment that may be pointing to a more distant future time.

In Matt. 23:36 Jesus used the same word:

Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

... so we can see that he was speaking about the persons to whom he was addressing his words at that moment, the Jews that didn't want to listen him ... He was speaking about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and the ruin of Jerusalem. Some years later his words were fulfilled ... In Matt.24 his discourse was about that event, but has the additional meaning for the future, since his disciples were asking:

Matt. 24:3 (...) “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?�

In the whole discourse of Matt. 24 we can see that Jesus was prophesying about the end of the whole system of things of the world, not only about the distorted Jew system. Even if when he said "this generation" had ONE application down to 70 C.E., the same wording referenced other humans whose lives would in some way be associated with the events he was talking about that would be happening DURING HIS PRESENCE.

Those events have been going on since 1914, so the "generation" he was talking about (in its secong meaning) is a generation in these times. The word "generation" does not mean necessarily people who are born in the same year; it could be some people who are closely related even if they are born in consecutive years and not with a very long interval betwen the first ones and the later ones, as here:

Ex. 1:6 Joseph eventually died, and also all his brothers and all that generation.

No limit on this period can be done, since Jesus said in the same context that:

Matt. 24:36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. 41 Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
43 “But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it.

However, we must be very aware of all the things that are being fulfilled and those that are yet to be fulfilled, of all the things that Jesus said would happen. As can be seen in the Scriptures, many people will be surprised by the time of the arrival of the end.

Matt. 24:50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know
... 25:13 “Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU know neither the day nor the hour.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 567 by marco]

I do not believe in astrology or zodiacal signs, nor magical predictions.

Neither do I because none of those have been proven to be accurate, unlike the prophecy given in Scripture.

Daniel agreed with you also. Daniel 2:27-28

27 Daniel replied, “No wise man, enchanter, magician or diviner can explain to the king the mystery he has asked about, 28 but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in days to come. Your dream and the visions that passed through your mind as you were lying in bed are these:

Head of Gold - Nebuchandnezzar
Arms and chest of silver - Media Persia
hips of bronze - Greece
Legs of Iron - Rome
Feet of iron and clay - kingdom yet to come

These kingdoms are repeated and over again in Daniel chapters 7-12 and it is there that we are told the identity of these nations. Daniel 8 describes how the Greek empire will be ruled by one Great man and then divided into 4 kingdoms none of which would be a relative of the one Great man.

The position you hold is unassailable because you accept that whatever happens, good or bad, is part of a divine plan. Rome responded to a political upheaval and somehow, into this very human situation, you bring God.

Rome was just one of the four empires that were foretold by Daniel.

It is such a pity nobody at the time told Titus that he won simply because the Jewish God allowed him to.

Daniel did long before Titus was even born.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 568 by Checkpoint]

Good contextual answer, but not for what he said in verse 34.

This verse has a wider context, one that begins at 22:12, where he divides people into two categories, those chosen and those not chosen.

What? Chapter 22 was at least the day before if not two days before the Olivet discourse.

He then then tangles with the religious leaders, and follows that up with his denunciation of them and description of their behavior, their parentage, and their destiny.

He calls them by name as well: "this generation".

Jesus is speaking to the religious leaders in chapter 23.

9 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,[f] whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Jesus is telling the scribes and Pharisees that they are even worse than those the persecuted the prophets. Because they not only were they sent the prophets and they were sent prophets and the Messiah Himself. So condemnation was on that generation specifically.

But then over in Chapter 24, new thought the disciples ask Jesus this question, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?�

The natural question to ask is what things are they talking about. You are trying to make the case that Jesus is talking about the punishment on the scribes and pharisees, but Jesus already answered the question of when that would happen. Their punishment would happen in their generation and it did.

In Matthew 23:39 Jesus makes another statement that He did not give a time table for. "39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’�

This is why the specifically ask what will be the signs of YOUR coming. Jesus said that Jerusalem would not see Him again until the people in say "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 569 by marco]

Thank you for your patient instruction. I hope, in using chestnut leaves instead of fig leaves, I did not detract from the profundity of Christ's beautiful prediction. I learn, then, that the best way to prophesy is to make your material vague: that way truth will surely come out.

It would have been silly of him to say that in 2345 years from now, in midwinter when a president called Peter is performing in a New Land called America, you will see the following signs. That would make things too easy. Wars and rumours of wars? - ah, yes, the Crimean War, the 30 Years War, the Gulf War, the Opium Wars, the Vietnam War, World War 1, the Napoleonic....tsk tsk..... the joys of prediction!

You say this in a tongue and cheek sort of manner but Daniels prophecy about Persia and Greece are pretty much that exact.

[marco]

You say this in a tongue and cheek sort of manner but Daniels prophecy about Persia and Greece are pretty much that exact.

Well there is a great deal of dispute about Daniel's historicity. Because of historical problems with his predictions, some choose to interpret his last kingdom as Rome and not Greece. There appears to be confusion over which ruler did what, and some maintain that Daniel deliberately placed anachronisms into his narrative to give the tales a fiction feel.


Here's Nostradamus predicting Hitler centuries before WW2.


Bestes farouches de faim, fleuves tranner,
Plus part du champ encontre Hister sera;
En caige de fer le grand fera treisner,
Quand rien enfant de Germain observera.

Brutes made ferocious from from hunger will cross rivers
And most of those battling will be against Hitler.
A great army in iron armour will make its attack
When this child of Germany will observe no law.


As with Daniel there is some mystery in alleged prophecy. So too with "this generation will not pass away..."

[marco]

Head of Gold - Nebuchandnezzar
Arms and chest of silver - Media Persia
hips of bronze - Greece
Legs of Iron - Rome
Feet of iron and clay - kingdom yet to come

These kingdoms are repeated and over again in Daniel chapters 7-12 and it is there that we are told the identity of these nations.

That's one interpretation; others place Greece last, ignoring Rome. When we look at the details there are lots of errors and inconsistencies. But that is the subject for another thread.