Who did Jesus Christ die for ? pt 1

[beloved57]

For whom did christ die ? The most controversial question within the religous circles of the ages.. Most all in the world today, believe that Jesus christ died for every human beingi n order to save them, but then turn around and say, the death of christ, in and of itself does not save anyone..but provides everyone in the world a chance or a opportunity for them to save themselves..

I want to tell you though, that the death of christ saved all that he died for, they live[spiritually], because he died for them..

2 cor 5:

14For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

As paul shares here, christ died for all in order that or for the purpose of them recieving life [ made alive] to live for the glory of God..

This means that we were made alive, created in christ jesus, unto good works, that He before had preapared for us to walk in..

Thats what it means by that, they should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again for them .

rom 4 tells us he rose for[because of] our Justification rom 4:

25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Let us look at two different scriptures to determine what has been revealed by God, as to who Jesus christ died for.

1 jn 2:1,2

1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

and Jn 11:

50Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad

Let me say this from the start, Jesus christ death was limited and particular in purpose and design, but unlimited as to its scope of reference, no longer zeroing in on one nation of ethnic men, but spreading out to all nations of men..

By the grace of God, I will bring together the two text of scriptures, that will give Gods people an understanding of the death and purpose of christ, the saviour of the world.

lets look at jn 11 51

51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

This statement that Jesus would die for a nation, was an actual prophesy from God, not guess work, but an actual revealation, for it says [ this he spake not of himself]..

So God himself in this particular , limits the intention of the death of christ to one nation [ the jews]

but he does not stop talking, note vs 52

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

but he shall also gather together in one [ one sheepfold, household, one nation] the children of God, that were scattered abroad..

Notice he did not say die but gather together in one. Thats because his death gathers and brings the children of God [ by election] to God, it gives us repentance to come to God..

1 pet 3:

For Christ also hath once suffered[or died] for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might[he shall] bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

So by means of his death, christ brings or gathers his people back to Gods sheepfold..

The same truth is taught in Jn 10:

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

So we see the same sequence of thought, the death or dying[of christ] for a specific people and a bringing to God another group of people..

Notice something about jn 11

50Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

This is saying, that christ death for the nation of israel, was not to save all its inhabitants, but only that some of them will be saved, that the whole nation perish not..

We see words were used depicting the whole for the some in the whole..

This agrees with the principal of election towards israel, notice rom 11:

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

This agrees with the train of thought when christ spoke to a lady about the limited design of his mission matt 15:

22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Even the intention within the nation of Israel, was limited to not them as a whole, but only the lost sheep of the house of Israel. God always deals with remants of the whole, yet calls it by the whole..

rom 9:

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

BTW, this same principle is in effect with the phrase of God so loved the world, yet it was not every single individual, but those that were in the world, that he loved jn 13:

1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

Jesus loved the world , is to say more specifically, he loves his own chosen ones in the world..

There is a world [kosmos] of people Jesus shall save jn 3:

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might[shall be] be saved.

There is also a world[kosmos] that shall be condemed. 1 cor 11:

32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

There are two distinct purposes to those designated the world, you have the world of Jacobs, and the world of easus..

rom 9:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Those of us who are of the purpose of God according to election, those He Loves, but of those who are of the purpose of perdition, those He hates..

So we must remeber that Gods world of election is distinct from satans world of reprobation..

Yes God has decreed that satan has his world, a world of the ungodly..2 pet 2:

5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

where also he [satan] is termed the prince of this world

jn 12:

31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

jn 14:


30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

jn 16:

11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

So the prince and his world of ungodly seed, is Judged and condemed..

The word prince is archon and means= a ruler, commander, chief, leader

This means he rules and governs a world, the seed of satan, in fact, by nature, we too [ the elect] were part of this world, but because of election, and the redemptive blood of christ, we are translated from his dark kingdom into that of our election and blessedness..

col 1:

12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

The elect, have not ourselves to thank, not our wise decsion, not our freewill as it were, but the power of God, which has made us meet, delivering us, rescuing us, from the power and world of darkness, where satan is ruler and god..

The world of the election of grace is saved from satans world of darkness..

Quickly a word on the high priest caiaphas, whom God used or inspired to make the prediction in jn 11, for no where conclusively is he said to be a believer, which means God in His sovereignty does and can use anyone, elect or non elect, to inspire truth from..

Many today in these days of apostacy, God has used to speak forth truth of the word of God, for the sake of His elect, so by no means are we to conclude that those who God uses to show forth some truth of His, by no means should we conclude them a vessel of honor. If you hear everything what they believe, you will come to the conclusion, that everything they believe is not of Gods inspired word..

Lets look again at the prediction in jn 11 vs 52

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Lets see the similarity in this verse and one chapter back in jn 10:

15-16 where Jesus is speaking to ethnic jews:

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [ of national Isreal]

16And other sheep[ not of national israel I have, which are not of this fold[ national israel]: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Ladies and Gentlemen, this passage is Identical to jn 11: 50-53..

also it is Identicle to 1 jn 2 2

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The focus of the redemptive purposes of God, no longer centers in the sheep of that national people, but now expands the national boundries to include, sheep from all nations of the world, as now the grater fulfillment of the abrahamic coveanant is being realized..

gen 17:

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

gen 18:

Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

abrahams blessings had world wide implications outside of palastine..

rom 4:

13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

In other words, abraham becoming the Father of many nations was not condition on him, but was a promise given[ or revealed] to him unconditionally through Faith.

God gives faith to the elect so we can understand to a certain degree, the things that are freely given to us of God..

1 cor 2:

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Abraham had been given the same spirit of God, in newbirth..

But getting back on subject, yes the mentioning now of the world, or whole world, is the switching of the salvaic purposeses from one central nation now to the broader scope of the world, in pursuit of the fulfillment of the abrahamic covenant that all the nations of the world would be blessed..

gal 3:

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

And Jesus christ coming into the world, was for primarily in pursuit of this purpose of God..

Jn 3 16 ; jn 1 29; 1jn 4:

9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

[beloved57]

Do I? I reject your version, but why are you so sure your version is "God's Truth"?

I am born again and have been taught by God..you reject my version you say, well then you reject Gods word..

Do I? Or,do I reject the claim you speak for God?

Somehow, your claim of special understanding falls flat. You have not been able to counter my points of the scripture you ripped out of context when the context is revealed, but rather started claiming 'special understanding' because you are 'born again'.

If someone did that to you, would you believe them? I don't think so.

I make a challenge to you. Rather than claim special understanding because you are born again, or attack me for 'rejecting god's word', how about if you look at those passages IN CONTEXT, (not theology by dots), and explain how those passages mean what you say they mean, using the surrounding passages as support. In other words, use CONTEXT, rather than 'theology by dots'.

Do you think you can do that? If your understanding is as clear as you say it is, certainly you can do that.

Otherwise, well, the only person you will be able to convince is yourself, and at that poorly. Claiming superior knowledge , and not being able to properly teach that knowledge to others, with a smug attitude, claims of superiority, and ad homenin attacks against others are more likely to drive people FROM the gospel rather than get them saved.

You do want to save other people, don't you?? Th

If you were 'born again' , and 'taught by god', surely you can show how your views meet scripture in context. Is your claim hubris, or can you back it up?

Your points are silly, you dont understand the truth..

[Goat]

Do I? I reject your version, but why are you so sure your version is "God's Truth"?

I am born again and have been taught by God..you reject my version you say, well then you reject Gods word..

Do I? Or,do I reject the claim you speak for God?

Somehow, your claim of special understanding falls flat. You have not been able to counter my points of the scripture you ripped out of context when the context is revealed, but rather started claiming 'special understanding' because you are 'born again'.

If someone did that to you, would you believe them? I don't think so.

I make a challenge to you. Rather than claim special understanding because you are born again, or attack me for 'rejecting god's word', how about if you look at those passages IN CONTEXT, (not theology by dots), and explain how those passages mean what you say they mean, using the surrounding passages as support. In other words, use CONTEXT, rather than 'theology by dots'.

Do you think you can do that? If your understanding is as clear as you say it is, certainly you can do that.

Otherwise, well, the only person you will be able to convince is yourself, and at that poorly. Claiming superior knowledge , and not being able to properly teach that knowledge to others, with a smug attitude, claims of superiority, and ad homenin attacks against others are more likely to drive people FROM the gospel rather than get them saved.

You do want to save other people, don't you?? Th

If you were 'born again' , and 'taught by god', surely you can show how your views meet scripture in context. Is your claim hubris, or can you back it up?

Your points are silly, you dont understand the truth..

And, what I get is evasion. Why is that? I will guess that when it comes to my points, and your claims, and my points against your claims, it is the other people who will have to judge.

I wonder what they will think of your inability to answer?

[beloved57]

And, what I get is evasion. Why is that?

because you need to be born again, you dont understand God or the scriptures..

[Goat]

And, what I get is evasion. Why is that?

because you need to be born again, you dont understand God or the scriptures..

You repeat that. Yet, you are unable to discuss 1 timothy 4:10 in context, and explain how 'all men' means just the elect.

You quote Matthew 25 as showing how the elect are the sheep, and others are goats, yet are unable to explain how the rest of Matthew 25 discusses that the criteria for is not faith, but good works and acts of compassion towards the poor and needy.

Now, are you just going to sit there and claim superior knowledge, or are you going to actually engage in a discussion, and show how your claims of the 'elect' are supported by scripture. I think I have shown that in context, your claims do not match scripture.

Are you going to show how those passages mean what you say , when looked at in context, or will you claim superiority, or call my arguments 'silly' , and thus admit defeat?

[beloved57]

And, what I get is evasion. Why is that?

because you need to be born again, you dont understand God or the scriptures..

You repeat that. Yet, you are unable to discuss 1 timothy 4:10 in context, and explain how 'all men' means just the elect.

You quote Matthew 25 as showing how the elect are the sheep, and others are goats, yet are unable to explain how the rest of Matthew 25 discusses that the criteria for is not faith, but good works and acts of compassion towards the poor and needy.

Now, are you just going to sit there and claim superior knowledge, or are you going to actually engage in a discussion, and show how your claims of the 'elect' are supported by scripture. I think I have shown that in context, your claims do not match scripture.

Are you going to show how those passages mean what you say , when looked at in context, or will you claim superiority, or call my arguments 'silly' , and thus admit defeat?

You arent able to understand spiritual truth, you dont need discussion but a new birth..

[Goat]

You arent able to understand spiritual truth, you dont need discussion but a new birth..

Again, evasion. If you can't discuss, why come here? This IS a discussion/debate board.

Claiming that I don't understand 'spiritual truth', while avoiding the context of the the passages you quotes seems a tad dishonest to me.

If you aren't here to discuss and debate, what are you here for?

[beloved57]

You arent able to understand spiritual truth, you dont need discussion but a new birth..

Again, evasion. If you can't discuss, why come here? This IS a discussion/debate board.

Claiming that I don't understand 'spiritual truth', while avoiding the context of the the passages you quotes seems a tad dishonest to me.

If you aren't here to discuss and debate, what are you here for?

I already gave you my answer to that verse or somebody, if you dont agree with it fine, i dont expect you to anyway since you are spiritually dead..

[Goat]

You arent able to understand spiritual truth, you dont need discussion but a new birth..

Again, evasion. If you can't discuss, why come here? This IS a discussion/debate board.

Claiming that I don't understand 'spiritual truth', while avoiding the context of the the passages you quotes seems a tad dishonest to me.

If you aren't here to discuss and debate, what are you here for?

I already gave you my answer to that verse or somebody, if you dont agree with it fine, i dont expect you to anyway since you are spiritually dead..

Yet, you did not respond to my pointing out the context of your quotes. Why won't you respond to the context of the quotes? Calling me spiritually dead does not resolve the issue. Why won't you respond to what the Bible actually says?

Shall we go over the passage in Matthew 25 again, since you ripped that one line out of context, and when looking in context, it says the exact opposite of your claim?

Why are you evading by insulting? Why can't you discuss the passages in context?
Certainly, you want to educate other people, even if you claim I am spiritually dead? Do it for other people, if not for me. By evading and avoiding, it gives the appearance you are unable to defend your claims. Certainly, you would like to show people the spiritual truth, rather than have it appear that someone who you claim is spiritually dead understands the context of the bible better than you!

[beloved57]

You arent able to understand spiritual truth, you dont need discussion but a new birth..

Again, evasion. If you can't discuss, why come here? This IS a discussion/debate board.

Claiming that I don't understand 'spiritual truth', while avoiding the context of the the passages you quotes seems a tad dishonest to me.

If you aren't here to discuss and debate, what are you here for?

I already gave you my answer to that verse or somebody, if you dont agree with it fine, i dont expect you to anyway since you are spiritually dead..

Yet, you did not respond to my pointing out the context of your quotes. Why won't you respond to the context of the quotes? Calling me spiritually dead does not resolve the issue. Why won't you respond to what the Bible actually says?

Shall we go over the passage in Matthew 25 again, since you ripped that one line out of context, and when looking in context, it says the exact opposite of your claim?

Why are you evading by insulting? Why can't you discuss the passages in context?
Certainly, you want to educate other people, even if you claim I am spiritually dead? Do it for other people, if not for me. By evading and avoiding, it gives the appearance you are unable to defend your claims. Certainly, you would like to show people the spiritual truth, rather than have it appear that someone who you claim is spiritually dead understands the context of the bible better than you!

A spiritually dead person cannot understand the bible, you should not even read the bible..

[otseng]

You arent able to understand spiritual truth, you dont need discussion but a new birth..

Again, evasion. If you can't discuss, why come here? This IS a discussion/debate board.

Claiming that I don't understand 'spiritual truth', while avoiding the context of the the passages you quotes seems a tad dishonest to me.

If you aren't here to discuss and debate, what are you here for?

I already gave you my answer to that verse or somebody, if you dont agree with it fine, i dont expect you to anyway since you are spiritually dead..

Yet, you did not respond to my pointing out the context of your quotes. Why won't you respond to the context of the quotes? Calling me spiritually dead does not resolve the issue. Why won't you respond to what the Bible actually says?

Shall we go over the passage in Matthew 25 again, since you ripped that one line out of context, and when looking in context, it says the exact opposite of your claim?

Why are you evading by insulting? Why can't you discuss the passages in context?
Certainly, you want to educate other people, even if you claim I am spiritually dead? Do it for other people, if not for me. By evading and avoiding, it gives the appearance you are unable to defend your claims. Certainly, you would like to show people the spiritual truth, rather than have it appear that someone who you claim is spiritually dead understands the context of the bible better than you!

A spiritually dead person cannot understand the bible, you should not even read the bible..

Moderator note:

Goat is correct. Simply claiming that another cannot understand your viewpoint is not a valid way to debate. Futher, comments such as "you should not even read the bible" does not promote constructive debates.